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Autor Thema: Ring Hero balance discussion  (Gelesen 1103 mal)

Le Sournois

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Ring Hero balance discussion
« am: 23. Nov 2023, 01:44 »
I feared for my post to be too long for other threads so here it is

In this suggestion, i will often say "I recommand this" or "I recommand that" even if I'm not an expert but this will make my sentences more fluent.

That being said, I will suggest here some modifications concerning Ring Heroes, and quite a lot of them. I think balance and fun could be evenly achieved with them and this is really not the case for the time being in my opinion, here are the 3 reasons I think that way :

   -Some of the best Ring Heroes are currently the most accessible (Sauron and in a smaller extent Boromir)

   -Some leaderships of Ring heroes are crazy and quite a bit unfair because some factions can completely counter that even have a lot of way to counter that, and other factions just can't do anything about it apart from killing the Ring Hero.

Even for leaderships of attributes that cannot be countered, that's too easy I think to hide a Ring Hero inside a fully buffed army without having to manage well his abilities

   -I feel there is sort of a gap of generation between let's say traditionnal Ring Heroes (Gandalf, Saruman, Sauron) whose strengh rely on harsh, brutal power and incredible leaderships and recently made Ring Heroes where balance, originality and micromanagement are far more polished.


To further balance the system, there are my suggestions :

BOROMIR :

   Let's say it right away, Boromir should be nerfed in my opinion. He really needs it. There are 3 reasons to that :
   -He is quite accessible compared to other Ring Heroes, 2400 is not a high price for a Ring hero.
   -He has what I sayid above about incredible leaderships, double armor and damage is just insanely good
   -Last but not least, He can act as a transitionner hero before getting gandalf the Challenge master. Indeed, it can be a very good strategy to give Borormir the Ring and wait till he dies to give the Ring to gandalf afterwards who cost more and who requires a spellbook power to reach his full potential. That capacity to act as a transitionner hero is an advantage in itself which count in the balancing of the system.

   Yes, when he dies he have negative effects, but the player can take so much advantage before it that it isn't such a big deal.

    Here are 2 nerfs I recommand :
-His leadership to be reduced to 40 % damage, 40 % armor (which is still good)
-only newly recruited units equips forged blades and heavy armors and not the ones who were already in the battlefield

GANDALF THE CORRUPTED
He is perfect

GANDALF THE CHALLENGE MASTER
   Gandalf has what I call a leadership of attributes that cannot be cancelled. That is very nice, but it is so strong and it restrain too much the good micro management that Gandalf requires.

Gandalf is the favourite hero of a lot of player (he is my favourite hero for the time being). But it's sad that one of the funniest hero fo the game can buff his allies so much he doesn't need to be well played and can stay in the centre of his army well protected. I would prefer him to heal even better than to make units invulnerable.

   Here are my suggestions :

-Reduce the strenght of his leadership of attributes by at least 50 %
-Increase slightly his healing rate for units around him
-reduce the recharge time of all his abilities by 100 % (ncluding his active and passive bubble shield (that doesn't work for the time being, Wizard blast recharge time is 33 seconds for gandalf the White and the same for gandalf the Challenge master, I tested it)

    I would prefer Gandalf to have a very fast recharge time and his abilities to deal less damage (in his attempt to master the dark power of the ring) that a long recharge time and just more damage. His abilities knocckback ennemies, there are always useful, what would be fun is to be able to do it very often.

THEODEN :

   He is an exception to what I said about traditional Ring heroes. Theoden is perfectly balanced. Yes, he is very accessible but still needs a power from the spellbook to reach his real power and even if this one is also quite accessible, Theoden is not immensely powerful with the Ring. All his powers with the Ring have a price and they are not overpowered. His leadership for example, even if it can apply to all the map is of 25 % damage and 25 % armor and can be countered.

ELROND :

    Elrond his perfect. The Fellowship of the Ring is a very powerful reward to a very difficult hero to have.

GALADRIEL :

    She is very nice as she is. I would simply recommand that when she takes either form with the Ring, to decrease the recharge time of the 2 powers that are dedicated to her in the spellbook by 20 % (stacks with Perfect knowledge). to get Vigilot and tornadoes more often. It would make up for the fact she can more or less achieve her Ring form via the spellbook.

THORIN AND DURIN :

They are very good. Congratulation for the Durin system by the way !

DAIN IRONFOOT :

    Dáin is one of those recently made heroes where a lot of balance has been made, but i would say slightly too much. He has good abilities and he is constantly in his maximum battle rage but the fact he can't heal outside of combat is almost a challenge, and he has not even a leadership ! Not even 25 % damage and armor for allied units. he is not to be compared to the likes of Boromir, Gandalf or Saruman.

   However, for Dain Ironfoot, I would just simply recommand to improve his level 10. His ability vendetta is a real risk for a very small reward. really, a level 10 ability from a Ring hero which generates a risk to loose this Ring hero even if it's makes him more powerful for a time has for unique reward to heal himself and friendly nerby heroes ?

   I would recommand to add the following effect on that ability to deepen its logic of risk but to add a real reward at the end :
"if the ability has been activated for 45 seconds and the target is finally destroyed, all heroes and units in a large radius are healed and get definitively extremeley good attributes"

   There the change of attributes with double armor and double damage for units and heroes would be very much welcome after so much effort with a quite hard ring Hero to master !


SARUMAN THE BLESSED :

   Saruman the Blessed has one of those enormous leaderships. However, as a range hero, this leadership is harder to master well he will often tend to be away from his melee troops. however, double armor, double damage and twice the experience is so powerful that I can't say this is balanced.

If Saruman just makes the effort to stay around his troops, he is almost impossible to kill.

    Rather than nerfing the value of the leadership, I would suggest a way for factions that can't cancel leaderships to negate it nonetheless. All attacks on Saruman the Blessed would deactivate his leadership for 3 seconds, even archer attack. That way, Saruman should be played in a intelligent manner to protect him from damage and using well his devastating leadership and base attack !

SARUMAN THE CURSED :

He is very good

SAURON :

   Sauron his I think the main problem of all when we talk about balance with Ring Heroes. I've already mentionned it in my last suggestion concerning the Ring system, but reallly for the time being he is the most accessible Ring Hero except maybe Theoden and he is the best of all ! This unbalance is deepened by the Ring system where having your Ring hero on the battlefiled as soon as possible is very important.

   That's why I recommand to make the Necromancer being able to take on the Ring only from level 6 on and not before. In that way, he would be one of the most difficult Ring Hero to get, and there would be no problem then that the event of Sauron taking the Ring get to be the one event in Edain that almost guarantee by itself the victory.

   If a restriction is indeed put on Sauron's accessibility on the Ring, I would then recommand to add an atmospheric buff. There is already the darkness that buff all troops mapwide when Sauron get the Ring, but it can be countered and it fade after a certain time. I would recommand to launch a new darkness every 2 minutes to increase the feel of power and the atmosphere of chaos the event of the Master recovering his ring implies.

SMAUG :

    Smaug need first of all for his system at level 5 to work correctly; When he will be able to get 100 % damage and armor, he will be far better than he is now. However, his inner flame ability as level 1 can damage allies as well as ennemies but it is not perilous 50/50.

In fact, as the fire extends behind Smaug, he is far more a danger for his own troops than for the ennemies.

   I would not recommand to change this but rather to add a new effect that would apply this time in front of him where ennemies are more likely to be, a shokwave of his claws that knockack foes and allies alike in front of him every 5 seconds. Maybe it's impossible to make an animation of Smaug tapping the earth in front of him but at least having all units in a wide radius to be knockbacked for them to be easier preys to Smaug's fire would be very cool.

   I would also recommand at level 8 to increase his attack speed by 20 % passively to have a feel of power and dynamism that would be very pleasing I guess.

THE WITCH KING OF ANGMAR :

   The Witch King is another recently made Hero. I will say that his level 3 and his level 10 are very good indeed. However, the links with the factions he favours is not in my opinion very much strenghtened.

    The ability to build Ore mines on settlements is not that good. Yes, the link with sorcerers and vassals are quite well improved but for Carn Dûm and for monsters, they lack power.

    I say that also because the Witch King even he is central to his faction is nonetheless maybe the hardest Ring Hero to get because he cost 4000 and the economy of Angmar is not that impressive especially if the player is forced to a defensive position.

And especially, the Ring could dwell on that : on the weaknesses of Angmar if they are forced to a defensive position whereas the Witch King without the Ring must have map control to really reach his full potential.

    That is why for Carn Dûm and for monsters I recommand to replicates all the buffs they get near settlements to all buildings of Angmar.

    When the Witch King get the ring with a Carn Dûm favour, all building of Angmar upon construction would replenish fallen soliders of Carn Dûm and not just settlements, and if monsters are favoured, the Werewolves would get 50 % damage and armor inside their base also.


Here are all my balance suggestions for Ring Heroes. Hoping you like it. Good end of week

Halbarad

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Re: Ring Hero balance discussion
« Antwort #1 am: 29. Nov 2023, 00:39 »
Interesting.
Agree on Boromir, Theoden, Elrond, Durin,
I'm unsure of Thorin.

I think Gandalf the Corrupted needs a buff against archers, Smaug needs that too (especially against archer heroes). Both of them are in my opinion worse then their original form without ring and it always feels like a punishment when you have to get their ringform to prevent the enemy from getting the ring. While archers should be a good way to kill ring heroes that attack from the distance (-> Saruman), the slow Gandalf and the slow and big Smaug should only be affected by close combat, since its already pretty easy to kill them when they run away or can't hide inside their army. 

I don't understand your suggestion for Gandalf the Challenged Master, as far as I know he doesn't make units invulnerable? I think he could be nerved a little bit by only allowing bright word of power while he isn't riding.

I wouldn't need that additional Spell-recharge-time for Galadriel.

Saruman: Sounds like a nice idea. I also think both of his forms should have less life to make it easier to kill them, since they are, as you've described, really hard to get when attacking from within the enemies army clumb.

Sauron: Yes he is very accessable, but I think a Sauron is Level 1-3 is much easier to counter then Boromir since he isn't that fast and doesn't have that much health. I don't like the limitation of him only being able to get the ring when being level 6 or higher, that doesn't really fit with the lore and feels unnessecary. Instead, he could pick up the Ring and get to his ring form by forging again his armor of old for 2000 ressources.
I also think that we could deleate his self healing since it guaranties for him do be more or less secure that the front the whole time, while in the books he only came out after the last allience was fighting inside of Mordor and his realm was at the brink of destruction. He already has an ability that makes him more or less impossible to kill for a short amount of time, that should be enought.

The Witchking could probably also need a nerf.

Le Sournois

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Re: Ring Hero balance discussion
« Antwort #2 am: 30. Nov 2023, 21:13 »
Interesting.
Agree on Boromir, Theoden, Elrond, Durin,
I'm unsure of Thorin.

I don't understand your suggestion for Gandalf the Challenged Master, as far as I know he doesn't make units invulnerable? I think he could be nerved a little bit by only allowing bright word of power while he isn't riding.



Sauron: Yes he is very accessable, but I think a Sauron is Level 1-3 is much easier to counter then Boromir since he isn't that fast and doesn't have that much health. I don't like the limitation of him only being able to get the ring when being level 6 or higher, that doesn't really fit with the lore and feels unnessecary. Instead, he could pick up the Ring and get to his ring form by forging again his armor of old for 2000 ressources.
I also think that we could deleate his self healing since it guaranties for him do be more or less secure that the front the whole time, while in the books he only came out after the last allience was fighting inside of Mordor and his realm was at the brink of destruction. He already has an ability that makes him more or less impossible to kill for a short amount of time, that should be enought.

The Witchking could probably also need a nerf.


I think with an armor that would cost 2000 for Sauron would not change anything in the problem that he has to be the best Ring Hero though he would be still the most accessible (for getting the Ring early on and that's the most important).

A few money to pay afterwards whenever we want after having collected the Ring would not change a lot in the balance unless it cost a lot more than 2000. 8000 maybe ?

For Gandalf the Challenge Master, I'm pretty sure he has a very strong leadership. I think units around it glow, and in the description at the citadel, it is said that units around him have better attributes, and I have the impression that this buff is massive. The heal is quite slow but the buff is really massive, and that's why I suggest nerfing it, and to make up for it, to focus on the recharge time of its abilities that it would be so cool to use more often with this form.

I don't understand why the Witch King should be nerfed and I'm interested to hear your point of view on the subject because in my opinion, it's quite the other way round, I think he is very hard to get and that his Favours are not emphasised enough with the Ring especially for the men of Carn Dûm.

dgsgomes

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Re: Ring Hero balance discussion
« Antwort #3 am: 19. Jan 2024, 14:21 »
Really interesting post and suggestions, Le Sournois!

I also like playing a lot with Ring Heroes, and even though balancing should not be the biggest concern about them compared, for example, to a fun, original and lore-accurate design, ignoring balancing just make the Ring Heroes boring and unusable.

- Boromir: I fully agree with your suggestion
- Gandalf the Corrupted: I'd suggest a small movement speed and armor buff to make him more viable; he doesn't perform well compared to other Ring Heroes
- Gandalf the Challenge Master: I think he is perfect considering lore and balancing aspects
- Theoden and Elrond: agreed
- Saruman: for me, he has always been the biggest problem concerning balance of Ring Heroes; an insane leadership, which I feel that is not even that fitting, for a faction that surely doesn't need it (possibly has the strongest army in late game) + strong AOE regular attacks that may even knock back heroes, which are the realible tools that you would need to try killing him; I am not even gonna talk about his powerfull spells :D
I don't know if the nerfs you suggested would be enough or would be the best solution, but surely something has to be done; playing against him is not fun at all, and with him is absolutely broken
- Sauron: I feel like making a level requirement would just not fit logically; I would not change him, to be honest; yes, he is definitely very strong, but he is Sauron afterall, and yes, he is an easier hero to purchase, but he is the most canonically accurate Ring Hero, isn't he? Sauron getting the Ring always seem alright and a good challenge to me in a match, and due to his slow movement speed, he can quite often be defeated (differently to Saruman with the Ring)
- Smaug: it's design overall isn't that great to me, but I have no suggestion to improve it; I agree that the flames are not that good, and the friendly fire is really bad indeed

Halbarad

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Re: Ring Hero balance discussion
« Antwort #4 am: 21. Jan 2024, 12:36 »
Regarding Sauron:
Zitat
and due to his slow movement speed, he can quite often be defeated
Not if he reached a higher level. Then he can activate his power form, where he moves and attacks really fast and slays every hero killer that gets to him, he can also heal himself and if you try to shoot him from afar, he can take control over your units or throw multiple slaying abilities on them.
I know that he is intended to be the strongest ring hero, but I feel like it wouldn't hurt to put less abilities on him or at least raise the timer for his abilities.
Or to make his abilities like Zaphragor abilities, so that he has to put essence of himself into his spells.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Ring Hero balance discussion
« Antwort #5 am: 21. Jan 2024, 23:32 »
Sauron is way to cool the way he is. Sorry :D

Maybe Smaug's passive ability can be split up - the constant damage over time to enemies stays as a passive, but setting the ground on fire could become active. He'd still set allies on fire as well with that, but it would be much easier to use him with your army.

Singollo

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Re: Ring Hero balance discussion
« Antwort #6 am: 22. Jan 2024, 11:16 »
I really like the idea of splitting Smaug's passive into an active and passive part. As of now you need to use him separately from your army in order not to grill your own goblins, which leaves him quite open to counterattacks. Making the burn the ground part become active gives the player much more control over the drawbacks of his ring form.

Increasing the recharge time for Sauron's abilities seems like a good way of nerfing him a bit without diminishing his coolness. And to be honest, his self-heal is not really an ability which I consider necessary for coolness and/or lore compatibility, but which has an immense impact on his durability, so I would definitely be in favor of removing that.
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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ring Hero balance discussion
« Antwort #7 am: 22. Jan 2024, 11:22 »
Splitting Smaug's passive sounds like a cool improvement
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Halbarad

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Re: Ring Hero balance discussion
« Antwort #8 am: 22. Jan 2024, 22:17 »
Agree, Smaugs ability should be splitted up!