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Autor Thema: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls  (Gelesen 4095 mal)

DarkestMaiar

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Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« am: 5. Apr 2015, 20:24 »
Hello ladies and gentlemen and players of the amazing Edain mod, I would like to start by saying how I love the Edain mod and have been eagerly awaiting an English release since you first started releasing the mod in German and finally in 4.0 my dream has come true. I have some ideas however that I think would benefit the game and mordor in especially.

Things I love about Mordor in Edain 4.1

-Amazing variety in orcs and units. You have so many different types of orcs in the game, from regular variety to the expansion fortress units, Cirth Ungol, Morgal etc. Its a joy to have different types.  Choice has always been a love for mordor players in my opinion because few factions have as many varied units.

-Customization on the trolls is excellent. I always thought it was redundant to have regular trolls, only to be replaced completely later on by attack trolls but you have cleverly made them not only up-gradable from the troll unit but further, given them different weapons.

-You have all the heroes in the mod I could ask for, I seriously cannot think of any that would be useful off the top of my head.

-Cool elite units like Castellens, honestly I dont know where their from, I assume the books? But I love having a trio of large, heavily armored ring wraiths (essentially) cutting through the enemy. 

Issues I have at the moment


So those are some of my favorite points on mordor, but here are my issues;


-Mordor has become almost too spammy, I know that is kind of the point and you may think its odd how I considered the number of orcs which are great for spam as one of my most loved points of the mod but I feel its too easy to just create an army of orcs without must need for change. I essentially feel like at the moment that my options for competitive play at least are just down to this one trait of mordor.

-As per the above point, trolls are too expensive, over 1000 for the cage, then 800+ on top of that unless you invest heavily in slaughter pens (co-signing yourself to troll production, obvious to the opponent)  and lets face it, trolls are too weak at the moment for such a cost. Every time I build them archers/pikemen which are not especially expensive can run them down quite easily.

-Heroes are too weak. Now this is coming from someone who also players the Battles for the Third age mod, which is geared up for strong heroes but all the same, the first thing I hear without fail during every major battle is "X hero has died" or "Sauron is in danger",  I always thought the key to BFME in general and one of the major facets in lord of the rings in lore, books or movie form is that the heroes are major players beyond anything else and the hordes of orcs or men were necessary but were laid low in the face of a strong hero.  In Edain many of their spells and mechanics are interesting but they do not last long enough to use them.

-The other Orc types that I love so much are inaccessible until their use is limited. For example, why pay between 2 and 3000 and

fight over a building plot which are usually in the centre of the map and hard to capture against a good opponent when besides the elite units, the new orcs are barely better than regular orcs? I feel like strategically its a tall order.


My suggestions


Ok so here is what I think could potentially make Mordor more fun to play, each section is in a spoiler tag so your not faced with all the walls of text for each section/idea;


Sauron




This was already quite long so I will wait until later to post ideas on Orcs and trolls.



Orcs and improvements to them




Mini side point on the camp built fortresses



TROLLS


« Letzte Änderung: 6. Apr 2015, 02:07 von DarkestMaiar »

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #1 am: 5. Apr 2015, 20:42 »
Exhaustive analysis.  :)
I need some time to absorption your thoughts.
But I am looking forward to another parts!  :P

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #2 am: 5. Apr 2015, 21:40 »
Well, that is a wall of text. I will try and give my thoughts on as many of your ideas as possible^^











That's it for now, might comment on the other stuff later. Phew, this took quite some time [ugly]

DarkestMaiar

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #3 am: 6. Apr 2015, 01:17 »
Thank you for replying guys. 

Zitat
since the team wanted to get away from the one-man-armies they used be.

Aww, but I love one man hero armies. Surely I am not the only one who thinks that is cool? Now its just thousand orc armies, which although more true to the films and probably the books to some degree (the heroes were still pretty super) becomes repetitive and simple.

Zitat
giving access to elite units, you get much stronger orcs. Dol Guldur's poison works wonders, and Minas Morgul's units are resistant to fear, which can be incredibly important.

Dont get me wrong, i like all those things but for over 2000, not to mention the cost in units to get the plot in the first place since you can be sure your enemy is trying to get it too? For 2-3000 resources you can build far more barracks whose orcs although not as good can be called up earlier than your likely to get the camp plot (unless your playing epic battle or something with 4k resources). 

Zitat
Even as a fighter he is cheap to get and does some pretty decent damage to regular infantry

I have not seen this to be honest, he can hurt them but his interval of attack seems slow and the damage is...meh. I mean the reason why people think Sauron is weak is because he is arguably the most powerful being in middle earth yet you cannot feel that when you use him in the game, because all you see is a guy getting horded by a handfull of infantry. Sure you can escape with teleport but thats not the point, he should not have to against such odds imo.

Zitat
But then, on top of that, you get the most powerful ability in the entire game,

Zitat
Getting him to lvl 10 might be tricky, but it should be tricky to get any hero to lvl 10, if you ask me

I put these two together for a reason, it should be tricky to get a hero to lvl 10 because at lvl 10 it should be powerful but Sauron is weak unless you have unlocked his ancient power OR acquired the ring, which are purely situational.  The necromancer himself however has one pitifully weak ability at level 10 which is hardly worth acquiring.  You said it yourself he gets the best ability at level 3, why bother any more than that?

Zitat
In the entire war of the ring, he chilled pretty hard in Barad Dur and build up his armies

Ah true but in Edain Sauron is either the Necromancer, and he did not, at least as far as the movies go just sit down, he crushed Gandalf and if it was not for Galadriel would likely have layed low his saviours. Point being Necromancer Sauron does "some" work, more than he does in Edain at the moment.

Zitat
it wouldn't fit his role as a supporter

The problem I have with this is I am not convinced hes much of a supporter at the moment. Apart from ability 3, the rest of his powers seem rather pointless.  If the only point of using Sauron as a unit is to give the Nazgal a global exp scale then you could have that without the unit as a passive for mordor anyway surely?  Then have the "influence of sauron" as an ability activated from the palantir.  Thats how pointless Sauron himself feels, the unit itself does not feel like he can do anything on the battlefield, just keep him in your base safe while you wait for ability 3 to cooldown.....

Its just not satisfying imo for such a grand hero.

Zitat
No, just no. Although his lvl 10 ability might be a bit weak right now, it is friggin awesome, why would you want to change that?^^

Did you not like the shadowy sorcery cloud in Edain 3.8? It looked cool to me, the one in this video;

https://youtu.be/mTOFb9o5Wrg?t=429

Impeding Death, think it was in a submod. I mean, the fiery wave is just....weak, I used it several times in my plays in 4.0 and 4.1 and have yet to see it do much.  Sauron in that video is closer to the Sauron I would envision.  More powerful and more useful, even in necromancer form.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #4 am: 6. Apr 2015, 02:28 »
Zitat
Now its just thousand orc armies, which although more true to the films and probably the books to some degree (the heroes were still pretty super) becomes repetitive and simple.
And playing with the same heroes over and over again is not repetitive and simple?  :o
If you think that Mordor plays out too boring, that is okay, i kinda feel the same way a little bit. Buffing heroes will not solve that though, the problem lies somewhere else.

Zitat
You said it yourself he gets the best ability at level 3, why bother any more than that?
Well, maybe because Sauron himself, the nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron unlock some pretty cool stuff and they are bound to Saurons level? Faramir's leadership is arguably his strongest ability, but you still continue leveling him up, right? ;)

Zitat
Dont get me wrong, i like all those things but for over 2000, not to mention the cost in units to get the plot in the first place since you can be sure your enemy is trying to get it too? For 2-3000 resources you can build far more barracks whose orcs although not as good can be called up earlier than your likely to get the camp plot (unless your playing epic battle or something with 4k resources). 
Outpost and three barracks would be 2400 iirc. Not too big of a difference. I also don't get the argument with the enemy trying to get the outpost as well, since that is the point of the game. If you don't believe me that those special buildings are worth their price, aks somebody else - they will tell you the same thing.

Zitat
Thats how pointless Sauron himself feels, the unit itself does not feel like he can do anything on the battlefield, just keep him in your base safe while you wait for ability 3 to cooldown.....
I keep Sauron with my troops all the time to support them with some ranged damage. He doesn't feel pointless at all. If you don't do that you are just missing out on something and I can't help you^^

Zitat
Did you not like the shadowy sorcery cloud in Edain 3.8? It looked cool to me, the one in this video
That is not Edain 3.8, that is the hero submod. And although that ability is quite cool, it is ridiculously op. You can cover the entire battlefield with that dark space so that literally everything your enemy gets dies immediately. And I still prefer the new ability.

Zitat
I mean, the fiery wave is just....weak, I used it several times in my plays in 4.0 and 4.1 and have yet to see it do much.
Well, if you had read my response carefully...
Zitat
No, just no. Although his lvl 10 ability might be a bit weak right now, it is friggin awesome, why would you want to change that?^^


Zitat
Ah true but in Edain Sauron is either the Necromancer, and he did not, at least as far as the movies go just sit down, he crushed Gandalf and if it was not for Galadriel would likely have layed low his saviours. Point being Necromancer Sauron does "some" work, more than he does in Edain at the moment.
That fightscene is just Peter Jacksons imagination. He did not beat up Gandalf at all, he ran away. gg no re

Adamin

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #5 am: 6. Apr 2015, 06:09 »
To be fair, we don't really know how exactly the battle of the White Council against Sauron went down. It is not to farfetched to assume that Sauron could beat them one on one in a magic battle, but the Council were many.

So yeah, the Necromancer could maybe be a magic mass damage hero, but we decided against that for various reasons. One reason would be that the support and buildup of Mordors strength/ armies is a far more unique and interesting hero mechanic. Another reason is that Sauron becomes the strongest hero in Edain as soon as you get the One Ring, so he basically has to be held back without the Ring to make him even more effective with it.

That's why I think it's very unlikely that we drastically change the fighting abilities of the Necromancer. Changes in his basic stats, or balance, are possible though.

DarkestMaiar

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #6 am: 6. Apr 2015, 12:17 »
Zitat
And playing with the same heroes over and over again is not repetitive and simple?  :o
If you think that Mordor plays out too boring, that is okay, i kinda feel the same way a little bit. Buffing heroes will not solve that though, the problem lies somewhere else.

Well thats the thing, if all you did was built a few heroes it would be but I want both a large army and strong heroes.  But I still think heroes are more complicated in use than just spamming orcs, they take a bit more micro, leveling and what not even if their generally very powerful.

Zitat
Well, maybe because Sauron himself, the nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron unlock some pretty cool stuff and they are bound to Saurons level? Faramir's leadership is arguably his strongest ability, but you still continue leveling him up, right?

Faramir levels for free though just through general battle use. Sauron on the other hand costs thousands ot tens of thousands.  Plus Sauron himself, after level 3 does not unlock anything powerful, he unlocks it for his minions true but then thats adding even more to his cost if you need to buy all the other heroes to benefit from him.


Zitat
Outpost and three barracks would be 2400 iirc. Not too big of a difference.

I actually had building more barracks in your starting camp in mind.  Each one only 400.  Of course if you have run out of space in your camp then it comes down to as you say, do you want an outpost and potentially 3 orc producers, or only 1 orc producer. In a game at the moment where orcs can swarm the map surely 3 trumps 1 every time regardless of what else the fortress does.


Zitat
. I also don't get the argument with the enemy trying to get the outpost as well, since that is the point of the game

My point was that the outpost plot on smaller maps especially (less so when theres a lot of them on larger maps if your playing with less players) is going to cost you a lot of time and effort to get right? so, its worth is even more important from that perspective than even its cost making 3 barracks on that plot for 2400 rather than 1 for 2-3k could be more crucial.

Zitat
If you don't believe me that those special buildings are worth their price,

Its more I have not personally experienced them being especially effective and how the game is at the moment, e.g. orc spam I dont think the special orcs are 3x better than normal ones. Their just as susceptible to cavalry charges/arrow spam.

Zitat
I keep Sauron with my troops all the time to support them with some ranged damage.


I suppose it can depend on the games you have, quite often my Sauron keeps getting focused down unless I micro him constantly which can get irritating for the sake of a little extra damage. Archers have range enough to pummel him even over your orc meatshield and if your opponent spawns extra forces on hm? gg sauron since his health is pretty low.

Zitat
And although that ability is quite cool, it is ridiculously op.

I know but reduce its damage a bit, give it the wraith conjuring power I mentioned and make it so it disappears after a minute or so and its not as OP, my issues with hte fire wave is not that its just weak, on top of that it feels similiar to a weaker version of the Witch Kings power.


Zitat
That fightscene is just Peter Jacksons imagination. He did not beat up Gandalf at all,

He could though couldnt he? hes a greater maiar than gandalf no?  And Edain is if I am not mistaken based not purely on the books but also some of the movies. It was, in my opinion a cool scene that gives Sauron some bite.



Zitat
To be fair, we don't really know how exactly the battle of the White Council against Sauron went down. It is not to farfetched to assume that Sauron could beat them one on one in a magic battle, but the Council were many.

So yeah, the Necromancer could maybe be a magic mass damage hero, but we decided against that for various reasons. One reason would be that the support and buildup of Mordors strength/ armies is a far more unique and interesting hero mechanic. Another reason is that Sauron becomes the strongest hero in Edain as soon as you get the One Ring, so he basically has to be held back without the Ring to make him even more effective with it.

That's why I think it's very unlikely that we drastically change the fighting abilities of the Necromancer. Changes in his basic stats, or balance, are possible though.


Thank you Adamin, well thats just my two cents based on what I have personally seen. I am sure the Edain team will perfect everything eventually what with everyone giving you constant views and updates the clearest and purest way to retain Edains feel while making its mechanics concrete throughout will become clearer all the time.


Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #7 am: 6. Apr 2015, 12:55 »
Zitat
Well thats the thing, if all you did was built a few heroes it would be but I want both a large army and strong heroes.  But I still think heroes are more complicated in use than just spamming orcs, they take a bit more micro, leveling and what not even if their generally very powerful.
In my experience nerfing heroes does exactly what you described. Since they die more easily, you need to pay more attention to them. You don't just a-move them forward with the rest of your army, you have to position them carefully for the best use of their leadership or their debuffs etc. Because they are defined by their abilities, you need to maximise the effect of those, which requires a good micro.

Zitat
Sauron on the other hand costs thousands ot tens of thousands.  Plus Sauron himself, after level 3 does not unlock anything powerful, he unlocks it for his minions true but then thats adding even more to his cost if you need to buy all the other heroes to benefit from him.
I don't want to appear rude or something, but did you even read my posts?^^
Most of the tasks are completed anyway, you do that throughout the match. It's not an upgrade, where you pay for an improved hero - you pay for more heroes/ a bigger army/more mapcontrol and on top of that, as an additional benefit, Sauron gains a level. And as I mentioned before, his lvl 10 ability might be a bit too weak atm, but that is more of a balance issue - solve that, and suddenly he has something very cool to unlock as well. Although the problem seems to be that our opinions are just different - I love that fire wave, you dislike it xD

Faramir may be leveled up just by killing enemies, yes, but what if there are not enough enemies around? He will be stuck at lower levels. Sauron's mechanic is different, each one has its perks and flaws.

Zitat
I actually had building more barracks in your starting camp in mind.
At some point you will run out of space in your base, as you already said. At that point you need to expand anyway, and even more cheap troops usually don't cut it. At that point I usually already have three or even four barracks in my base, which means I'm at full CP most of the time. Then you need stronger units that cost more money, but similar CP. That is what MM and DG are there for.

Zitat
Archers have range enough to pummel him even over your orc meatshield and if your opponent spawns extra forces on hm? gg sauron since his health is pretty low.
Enemy archers targeting Sauron is pretty nice, since that means they don't target your units. Sauron can always get away with his teleport if necessary. But in the end your playstyle is your decision.


Also, you say that Mordor plays a bit boring, but you didn't try out the outposts too much yourself. In that case I recommend you do that and take a look at those units, they might change your opinion. :)


DarkestMaiar

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #8 am: 6. Apr 2015, 13:36 »
Zitat
In my experience nerfing heroes does exactly what you described. Since they die more easily, you need to pay more attention to them.

Sure but dont you think at the moment its a bit too much? Like, most heroes seem to die VERY fast if a few hordes so much as sneeze at them? Even expensive heroes like Gandalf, my friend brought him to try and fight my hordes and he died instantly.  I only send Gothmog, an archer horde and maybe a fighter group to take him on.  I cant recall as typing this how much Gandalf costs but lets face it, most heroes need to get in the middle of a melee to do some damage, you cant hold Gandalf, aragorn etc back until theres only a couple of enemy hordes to deal with,its not realistic.

Same with Gothmog himself, he died seconds later to a few archer barrages. For 1k-2k units they do not last much longer than the free orc hordes I can get hundreds of  ;)


Zitat
I don't want to appear rude or something, but did you even read my posts?


I did but I disagree with;

Zitat
Most of the tasks are completed anyway, you do that throughout the match.

Because a lot of the tasks are not naturally completed. leveling up orcs, building tons of orcs sure, but what with the state of trolls, I cant imagine why I would pay for a troll cage and build 4 of the things when I can replace that space with a cheaper barracks.

Having all the Nazgal....ouch, not something you can generally achieve unless your just rolling your enemy and letting him live while you wait for resources for all those units.

Level 3 siege workshop? I never get this tbh, I use the free mumakil call in for my siege purposes.  Theres more of them and a lot of threm seem finicky to me.


Zitat
Although the problem seems to be that our opinions are just different - I love that fire wave, you dislike it

Indeed  :) at least we agree it needs some buffing.


Zitat
  At that point you need to expand anyway, and even more cheap troops usually don't cut it. At that point I usually already have three or even four barracks in my base, which means I'm at full CP most of the time. Then you need stronger units that cost more money, but similar CP. That is what MM and DG are there for.


Well this is the problem I probably have not noticed is I never feel my orcs dont cut it against my opponents. Maybe I need harder players to fight since my friends usually buckle under the constant orcs. The games do not often last long enough for me to need more, I rather just spend on increasing my supply.  4 barracks already produces more than enough orcs, with an outpost I usually grab another barracks or 2, this does not cost too much and produces tons of orcs across all 6.   

Zitat
Enemy archers targeting Sauron is pretty nice, since that means they don't target your units. Sauron can always get away with his teleport if necessary. But in the end your playstyle is your decision


I guess in a way thats true but at the same time I cant help still thinking outside of the mechanics of the balance of this, it seems silly to me that such a powerful being is little more than an extra target.  Obviously a lot of the game is not just number crunching, middle earth and Edain especially has a strong lotr atmosphere and it just seems odd to see Sauron going down so quickly or being little more than a structure amp.  This is again preference. Course, I do my best to find the ring, then he gets good.

Zitat
Also, you say that Mordor plays a bit boring, but you didn't try out the outposts too much yourself. In that case I recommend you do that and take a look at those units, they might change your opinion.


I try them out and I like them but thats just it, its just "trying out" often when my opponent has already buckled under orc pressure. I have never had a game won that I can clearly attribute to buying a fortress, its more of a tasty extra that I want to do but does not aid my strategy. Maybe I will have a game like that eventually.


Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls
« Antwort #9 am: 6. Apr 2015, 18:34 »
Zitat
Like, most heroes seem to die VERY fast if a few hordes so much as sneeze at them?
I actually like and prefer it this way. Gandalf can just run up to your melee units, blast them away with his lvl 1 ability and retreat safely, if he gets focussed down that hard. He will then regenerate health and, if you landed a good shot, he will also be level two or even three. He is not supposed to kill enemies by hitting them with his sword (well, to a certain extent), it is all about his abilities. Aragorn is the same, but he is designed to kill enemy heroes. Weak against infantry when alone and not supported, but activate his blademaster and he will kill Gothmog easily and even heal himself after that to take on those pesky nazgul^^
As I said, it probably comes down to personal opinion. Although I'm quite sure that you will get used to it if you have to ;)

Zitat
Maybe I need harder players to fight since my friends usually buckle under the constant orcs.
Can't comment on that^^ The balance of regular orcs is still being discussed and Mordor definitely is a strong faction, arguably the strongest, now that Rohan has been nerfed. If orc-warriors get nerfed, it might encourage going for trolls or elite units from the outpost, which would benefit Sauron.