[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Mordor Suggestions

Changes to Sauron, Orcs and Trolls

<< < (2/2)

Adamin:
To be fair, we don't really know how exactly the battle of the White Council against Sauron went down. It is not to farfetched to assume that Sauron could beat them one on one in a magic battle, but the Council were many.

So yeah, the Necromancer could maybe be a magic mass damage hero, but we decided against that for various reasons. One reason would be that the support and buildup of Mordors strength/ armies is a far more unique and interesting hero mechanic. Another reason is that Sauron becomes the strongest hero in Edain as soon as you get the One Ring, so he basically has to be held back without the Ring to make him even more effective with it.

That's why I think it's very unlikely that we drastically change the fighting abilities of the Necromancer. Changes in his basic stats, or balance, are possible though.

DarkestMaiar:

--- Zitat ---And playing with the same heroes over and over again is not repetitive and simple?  :o
If you think that Mordor plays out too boring, that is okay, i kinda feel the same way a little bit. Buffing heroes will not solve that though, the problem lies somewhere else.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Well thats the thing, if all you did was built a few heroes it would be but I want both a large army and strong heroes.  But I still think heroes are more complicated in use than just spamming orcs, they take a bit more micro, leveling and what not even if their generally very powerful.


--- Zitat ---Well, maybe because Sauron himself, the nazgul and the Mouth of Sauron unlock some pretty cool stuff and they are bound to Saurons level? Faramir's leadership is arguably his strongest ability, but you still continue leveling him up, right?
--- Ende Zitat ---

Faramir levels for free though just through general battle use. Sauron on the other hand costs thousands ot tens of thousands.  Plus Sauron himself, after level 3 does not unlock anything powerful, he unlocks it for his minions true but then thats adding even more to his cost if you need to buy all the other heroes to benefit from him.



--- Zitat ---Outpost and three barracks would be 2400 iirc. Not too big of a difference.
--- Ende Zitat ---

I actually had building more barracks in your starting camp in mind.  Each one only 400.  Of course if you have run out of space in your camp then it comes down to as you say, do you want an outpost and potentially 3 orc producers, or only 1 orc producer. In a game at the moment where orcs can swarm the map surely 3 trumps 1 every time regardless of what else the fortress does.



--- Zitat ---. I also don't get the argument with the enemy trying to get the outpost as well, since that is the point of the game
--- Ende Zitat ---

My point was that the outpost plot on smaller maps especially (less so when theres a lot of them on larger maps if your playing with less players) is going to cost you a lot of time and effort to get right? so, its worth is even more important from that perspective than even its cost making 3 barracks on that plot for 2400 rather than 1 for 2-3k could be more crucial.


--- Zitat ---If you don't believe me that those special buildings are worth their price,
--- Ende Zitat ---

Its more I have not personally experienced them being especially effective and how the game is at the moment, e.g. orc spam I dont think the special orcs are 3x better than normal ones. Their just as susceptible to cavalry charges/arrow spam.


--- Zitat ---I keep Sauron with my troops all the time to support them with some ranged damage.
--- Ende Zitat ---


I suppose it can depend on the games you have, quite often my Sauron keeps getting focused down unless I micro him constantly which can get irritating for the sake of a little extra damage. Archers have range enough to pummel him even over your orc meatshield and if your opponent spawns extra forces on hm? gg sauron since his health is pretty low.


--- Zitat --- And although that ability is quite cool, it is ridiculously op.
--- Ende Zitat ---

I know but reduce its damage a bit, give it the wraith conjuring power I mentioned and make it so it disappears after a minute or so and its not as OP, my issues with hte fire wave is not that its just weak, on top of that it feels similiar to a weaker version of the Witch Kings power.



--- Zitat ---That fightscene is just Peter Jacksons imagination. He did not beat up Gandalf at all,
--- Ende Zitat ---

He could though couldnt he? hes a greater maiar than gandalf no?  And Edain is if I am not mistaken based not purely on the books but also some of the movies. It was, in my opinion a cool scene that gives Sauron some bite.




--- Zitat ---To be fair, we don't really know how exactly the battle of the White Council against Sauron went down. It is not to farfetched to assume that Sauron could beat them one on one in a magic battle, but the Council were many.

So yeah, the Necromancer could maybe be a magic mass damage hero, but we decided against that for various reasons. One reason would be that the support and buildup of Mordors strength/ armies is a far more unique and interesting hero mechanic. Another reason is that Sauron becomes the strongest hero in Edain as soon as you get the One Ring, so he basically has to be held back without the Ring to make him even more effective with it.

That's why I think it's very unlikely that we drastically change the fighting abilities of the Necromancer. Changes in his basic stats, or balance, are possible though.
--- Ende Zitat ---


Thank you Adamin, well thats just my two cents based on what I have personally seen. I am sure the Edain team will perfect everything eventually what with everyone giving you constant views and updates the clearest and purest way to retain Edains feel while making its mechanics concrete throughout will become clearer all the time.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:

--- Zitat ---Well thats the thing, if all you did was built a few heroes it would be but I want both a large army and strong heroes.  But I still think heroes are more complicated in use than just spamming orcs, they take a bit more micro, leveling and what not even if their generally very powerful.
--- Ende Zitat ---
In my experience nerfing heroes does exactly what you described. Since they die more easily, you need to pay more attention to them. You don't just a-move them forward with the rest of your army, you have to position them carefully for the best use of their leadership or their debuffs etc. Because they are defined by their abilities, you need to maximise the effect of those, which requires a good micro.


--- Zitat ---Sauron on the other hand costs thousands ot tens of thousands.  Plus Sauron himself, after level 3 does not unlock anything powerful, he unlocks it for his minions true but then thats adding even more to his cost if you need to buy all the other heroes to benefit from him.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I don't want to appear rude or something, but did you even read my posts?^^
Most of the tasks are completed anyway, you do that throughout the match. It's not an upgrade, where you pay for an improved hero - you pay for more heroes/ a bigger army/more mapcontrol and on top of that, as an additional benefit, Sauron gains a level. And as I mentioned before, his lvl 10 ability might be a bit too weak atm, but that is more of a balance issue - solve that, and suddenly he has something very cool to unlock as well. Although the problem seems to be that our opinions are just different - I love that fire wave, you dislike it xD

Faramir may be leveled up just by killing enemies, yes, but what if there are not enough enemies around? He will be stuck at lower levels. Sauron's mechanic is different, each one has its perks and flaws.


--- Zitat ---I actually had building more barracks in your starting camp in mind.
--- Ende Zitat ---
At some point you will run out of space in your base, as you already said. At that point you need to expand anyway, and even more cheap troops usually don't cut it. At that point I usually already have three or even four barracks in my base, which means I'm at full CP most of the time. Then you need stronger units that cost more money, but similar CP. That is what MM and DG are there for.


--- Zitat ---Archers have range enough to pummel him even over your orc meatshield and if your opponent spawns extra forces on hm? gg sauron since his health is pretty low.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Enemy archers targeting Sauron is pretty nice, since that means they don't target your units. Sauron can always get away with his teleport if necessary. But in the end your playstyle is your decision.


Also, you say that Mordor plays a bit boring, but you didn't try out the outposts too much yourself. In that case I recommend you do that and take a look at those units, they might change your opinion. :)

DarkestMaiar:

--- Zitat ---In my experience nerfing heroes does exactly what you described. Since they die more easily, you need to pay more attention to them.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Sure but dont you think at the moment its a bit too much? Like, most heroes seem to die VERY fast if a few hordes so much as sneeze at them? Even expensive heroes like Gandalf, my friend brought him to try and fight my hordes and he died instantly.  I only send Gothmog, an archer horde and maybe a fighter group to take him on.  I cant recall as typing this how much Gandalf costs but lets face it, most heroes need to get in the middle of a melee to do some damage, you cant hold Gandalf, aragorn etc back until theres only a couple of enemy hordes to deal with,its not realistic.

Same with Gothmog himself, he died seconds later to a few archer barrages. For 1k-2k units they do not last much longer than the free orc hordes I can get hundreds of  ;)



--- Zitat ---I don't want to appear rude or something, but did you even read my posts?
--- Ende Zitat ---


I did but I disagree with;


--- Zitat ---Most of the tasks are completed anyway, you do that throughout the match.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Because a lot of the tasks are not naturally completed. leveling up orcs, building tons of orcs sure, but what with the state of trolls, I cant imagine why I would pay for a troll cage and build 4 of the things when I can replace that space with a cheaper barracks.

Having all the Nazgal....ouch, not something you can generally achieve unless your just rolling your enemy and letting him live while you wait for resources for all those units.

Level 3 siege workshop? I never get this tbh, I use the free mumakil call in for my siege purposes.  Theres more of them and a lot of threm seem finicky to me.



--- Zitat ---Although the problem seems to be that our opinions are just different - I love that fire wave, you dislike it
--- Ende Zitat ---

Indeed  :) at least we agree it needs some buffing.



--- Zitat ---  At that point you need to expand anyway, and even more cheap troops usually don't cut it. At that point I usually already have three or even four barracks in my base, which means I'm at full CP most of the time. Then you need stronger units that cost more money, but similar CP. That is what MM and DG are there for.
--- Ende Zitat ---


Well this is the problem I probably have not noticed is I never feel my orcs dont cut it against my opponents. Maybe I need harder players to fight since my friends usually buckle under the constant orcs. The games do not often last long enough for me to need more, I rather just spend on increasing my supply.  4 barracks already produces more than enough orcs, with an outpost I usually grab another barracks or 2, this does not cost too much and produces tons of orcs across all 6.   


--- Zitat ---Enemy archers targeting Sauron is pretty nice, since that means they don't target your units. Sauron can always get away with his teleport if necessary. But in the end your playstyle is your decision
--- Ende Zitat ---


I guess in a way thats true but at the same time I cant help still thinking outside of the mechanics of the balance of this, it seems silly to me that such a powerful being is little more than an extra target.  Obviously a lot of the game is not just number crunching, middle earth and Edain especially has a strong lotr atmosphere and it just seems odd to see Sauron going down so quickly or being little more than a structure amp.  This is again preference. Course, I do my best to find the ring, then he gets good.


--- Zitat ---Also, you say that Mordor plays a bit boring, but you didn't try out the outposts too much yourself. In that case I recommend you do that and take a look at those units, they might change your opinion.
--- Ende Zitat ---


I try them out and I like them but thats just it, its just "trying out" often when my opponent has already buckled under orc pressure. I have never had a game won that I can clearly attribute to buying a fortress, its more of a tasty extra that I want to do but does not aid my strategy. Maybe I will have a game like that eventually.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:

--- Zitat ---Like, most heroes seem to die VERY fast if a few hordes so much as sneeze at them?
--- Ende Zitat ---
I actually like and prefer it this way. Gandalf can just run up to your melee units, blast them away with his lvl 1 ability and retreat safely, if he gets focussed down that hard. He will then regenerate health and, if you landed a good shot, he will also be level two or even three. He is not supposed to kill enemies by hitting them with his sword (well, to a certain extent), it is all about his abilities. Aragorn is the same, but he is designed to kill enemy heroes. Weak against infantry when alone and not supported, but activate his blademaster and he will kill Gothmog easily and even heal himself after that to take on those pesky nazgul^^
As I said, it probably comes down to personal opinion. Although I'm quite sure that you will get used to it if you have to ;)


--- Zitat ---Maybe I need harder players to fight since my friends usually buckle under the constant orcs.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Can't comment on that^^ The balance of regular orcs is still being discussed and Mordor definitely is a strong faction, arguably the strongest, now that Rohan has been nerfed. If orc-warriors get nerfed, it might encourage going for trolls or elite units from the outpost, which would benefit Sauron.

Navigation

[0] Themen-Index

[*] Vorherige Sete