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Autor Thema: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls  (Gelesen 4112 mal)

klantai

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The ability to man the citadel's walls with archers is one of the cool things from BfME I the Edain Team resurrected for us, and as I was really fond of that option, I can't thank them enough : ).

However, it sometimes looks and gets a little messy with all those people on the walls, archers sometimes abandon their posts to run out of the citadel (despite the S command), sometimes one becomes mad and starts spinning on himself endlessly etc. so I ended up having a little idea : creating a new unit that fits in its stats and layout the need of manning the walls of the citadel, the Garrison Archer.

A Garrison Archer battalion would have the following attributes :
- a single line of units, so as to be easier to place and organize on the wall
- a formation toggle between :
    *1 : no effect, or something else, depending on whether it's a good choice to give them a second role. In that formation, the unit's stats are between average and fairly weak, again depending of whether they have to assume a second role
    * 2 :
        ~ can't move anymore
        ~ units get closer together (how close this gets would be a way to balance their usefulness since the closer they get, the easier it would be to have more of them on the same wall)
        ~ if it's Gondor Garrison Archers, they take a formation slightly curved inwards, so as to further facilitate their smooth manning of the walls. If it's Rohan Garrison Archers, they keep a straight line, since the Rohan walls are straight
        ~ units gain a high bonus to armor (so as to simulate the presence of protective parapets), range (so as to simulate the higher ground advantage of shooting from the walls), fire rate and damage (to compensate for their weakness outside this formation, and small numbers) as balance allows
        ~ maybe, though I'm not sure about this one : give them a bonus to damage against catapults, as balance allows, so that they can punish catapults that get too near (and that way keep the enemy's armies in good order ^^)
- other abilities that would seem befitting for such an unit would be :
    * the possibility to have access to flaming arrows
    * an active Volley power (allowing them the possibility to shoot a storm of arrows in a small zone once in a while). As I see it, they should only be able to use it a small distance away from them (as it would emulate the archers on the wall showering the assailants below them during a siege) but could be given an additional effect of temporarily lowering the affected enemy units' morale (as balance allows)

The abilities mentioned above should, I believe, allow this unit to be a decent defensive asset while being mostly useless at anything else, and if it isn't sufficient, I can think of a few more measures to keep them in their specific role without making regular archers useless :
- slower base moving speed, so that they have to be deployed carefully if used outside (to defend an outpost, for instance)
- low armour outside of their special formation, maybe with no access to reinforced armour. That one may not be necessary if their special formation really increases their fire power from weak to strong, so that there already would be no incentive to use them without putting them in formation
- no banner-carrier maybe ; it seems a little severe, but it may or may not increase how smoothly they can be deployed on the walls (without the extra unit in front of them)
- their volley ability locked unless they're in the right formation. I think it's logical to have it that way, but I sincerely don't know if it's actually feasible

Other than that, depending on a potential second role, their resource and command points cost as well a possible number of units restriction would have to be chosen for the best balance.
Actually, it's a role I could well see given to the Morthond archers for Gondor, as they already have their regular archers and their rangers. As for Rohan, I haven't played with them enough, but maybe regular archers, through a modified formation toggle could play both roles, so as to emphasize that Rohan is neither a nation of footmen, nor a nation of archers (nor a faction that's strong on defense for that matter ^^) and that would contribute to give mounted archers an even greater role.

SRQPO85

  • Bilbos Festgast
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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #1 am: 9. Apr 2015, 22:52 »
Sound interesting, but I think that most people would just put them places that are not the walls and use them to set up defensive zones almost anywhere. I think it would be hard to be able to actually make them tailored to wall defense without giving them abilities that make them overpowered in the field.

Sir_Stig

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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #2 am: 9. Apr 2015, 23:11 »
I think a better solution would be to add a slight armour and range buff to archers on walls, making an entirely new unit seems a bit extreme.

klantai

  • Bilbos Festgast
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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #3 am: 9. Apr 2015, 23:46 »
First of all, thanks for the comments : ).

Well, concerning the making a "new" unit rather than just giving a bonus to archers on walls, I do admit it sounds a bit extreme, but there are a few reasons why I'd still suggest it :

- First and foremost, I'm not sure it's possible/easy (modding-wise) to give a bonus only to archers and only when they're on walls, otherwise I may have suggested that
- Secondly, the point of a “new” unit would be to have a lower number of ranks that make deploying said archers on walls smoother, both visually and technically
- Thirdly, I've been writing “new” all along, because I believe the Garrison Archer role can be given to already existing units. I actually thought of it when wondering about what specific use could be given to archers from Morthond, when Gondor already has regular archers and rangers, and it seemed a fair job for them, as I believe having unit diversity is good, but it's better if it goes with role diversity : ).
On that matter, I do admit my ideas for Rohan are more limited, but I'd like to remind that movie-wise (as well as book-wise, even though  Tolkien doesn't always give that much detail about who does what during a battle) archers were mostly used for defense, be it by Rohan or Gondor (outside of rangers).
- Fourthly, by returning to fixed plots and walled cities, siege battles have become more prominent, as was mean by the Edain Team, and in such a context, I believe such an unit to be quite fitting.

As far as abusing such archers by using them outside of the citadel, I believe that with good thought given to balance, this shouldn't be a problem, and maybe it could even be a good thing. After all, a few squads of hard to move somewhat long-ranged archers would make for a sort of weaker moving watch-tower.
Their usefulness in the fields could furthermore be reduced in a number of ways, including one very simple that just came to me ^^ :
- thinking of it, what they need to have to make them good Garrison Archers (and emulate the presence of parapets) is not high all-around armour as I first suggested, but high projectile armour, because they won't get attacked by anything else as long as the city's not taken. So if they have weak overall armour, and only high projectile armour when in formation, in the field they will pack a decent punch, but will be destroyed by the first horde of whatever melee/cavalry will come their way.
- their numbers can be limited to whatever amount seems the best, so as to emphasize strategic placement
- once all these balance considerations are made, I can even see them as light siege units (much like Abu guns in Age of Empires III, if anyone here is familiar with it ^^) for harassing forward enemy bases : above average range and damage, slow movement, needing protection from anything but archers etc.

ziqing

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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #4 am: 10. Apr 2015, 00:52 »
you could just give regular archers of good faction a new command "defending the wall" to a certain section of wall, and those archers could just defend that part of wall and get extra bonus. I think it will be easy than making units just for defending the wall.
It could not be that hard,just like new formation for archers which could only be used on the wall

klantai

  • Bilbos Festgast
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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #5 am: 10. Apr 2015, 01:44 »
Well, my point is I'm not sure "on the wall" is something the game can detect and act upon in a skill/formation, but someone of the Team would have to answer that. If it can, then so much the better ; I kind of liked the idea of being able to use the archers in an unmoving formation even outside the walls though.
Anyhow, I hardly suggested to create an entirely new unit : it's more about giving a specific role to those Morthond archers, as well as finding a way to implement this in Rohan. If giving the formation to regular archers too seems more fitting (and it would make sense really ^^) then it's fine. However, unless a toggle can be achieved between more than 2 formations, regular archers would have to abandon one of their old formations (I don't know if people use them though ^^), and it would be harder to give them a special ability like the volley I suggested (due to limitations in the Palantir slots). Above all, I think that in addition to whether any on wall/overall, power/armour bonuses are applied or whether it's a specific unit or regular archers, it's important to find a way to spread archers in a single line fitting the wall so that they can man it smoothly.
All in all, I feel it comes down to whether specializing a bit an archer unit or (armoured) archers in general to defending walls is worth the trouble or not ; and as sieges are more frequent and intense than before, my answer to that would be yes : ).
As a last remark, after playing a game earlier this evening, I realized Morthond archers actually already do half of what I want them to do : their formation reduces incoming projectile damage while slowing them down : ). The catch is the way they deploy with that formation, whereas their fellow fiefdom soldiers with pike deploy in a remarkably fine single curved line that would fit my purpose quite well : in the end, all I suggest doing is merging those two abilities and fine tuning the result a bit : P

NetoD20

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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #6 am: 14. Apr 2015, 03:57 »
I think the best way to approach this is giving the regular archer unit of each good faction a "Man the Wall"  formation ability which makes the unit immovable and puts them in a certain pattern but bestows the following benefits:

-High armour against ranged attacks
-Higher range
-Higher velocity of attack

I don't see a problem in using them in this formation on camp, as long as they are given slow speed and have to be defended by infantry not only from cavalry but from foot-soldiers, being vulnerable in melee.

"So you are proposing to make all Good archers in this way, changing how we have been using them on camp for so long?" Yes, in fact I do and I see no problem with it. Edain 4.0 it's supposed to be a siege-oriented game (and most real medieval battles were sieges), so for me there is no problem in giving a regular and common unit a specific defensive siege role, for most battles should be sieges.

That solution would also address one of the problems I have with Edain 4.0 which is that archers are overly nerfed. That would make them more effective in a particular formation but still make them vulnerable to melee. So they wouldn't be nerfed anymore but would still be nerfed, if you get what I mean.

Again, I don't propose all Good archer units to be modified in this way, only the stand regular ones. More specialized archer units like Ithilien Rangers and Dúnedain should still be fast units used on camp battles rather than sieges.

I still agree with the author of the topic in that Morthond archers should have a role in the game. I agree with the mindset that variety of units should be accompanied by variety of roles, but siege shouldn't be the role of Morthond archers, that should be the role of Gondor Archers, the regular archers of that faction.

Sir_Stig

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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #7 am: 14. Apr 2015, 04:49 »
I agree with neto

klantai

  • Bilbos Festgast
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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #8 am: 14. Apr 2015, 10:52 »
Agreed : ) (I may have expressed myself wrong, I never meant for ranger-type units to have the man wall formation, just regular and/or Morthond). However it leaves me with a few questions : P :

- What of the formation toggle regular archers used to have ? I haven't had time to play much the past days so I couldn't test whether it was useful or not, but it would have to be replaced with the new formation, wouldn't it ?

- I agree that the Morthond archers may not be the best fit to the man the walls role (though when I suggested giving it to them, I was thinking it as part of another suggestion where you'd get access to them in a different way than in current Edain 4.0 ^^).
Then what role should they have ? According to the books, they went out on the fields of Pelenor and managed with great losses (including their lords) to kill many Mumaks by getting close to them and shooting in their eyes. This would tend to designate them as monster killers, but maybe this role is already taken by the rangers ? Maybe they could be a sort of low range, good resistance, good against monsters kind of unit, that could survive being swamped on the battlefield a little better than their peers ?

- Regular archers have, if I'm not mistaken, three rows of units, while Morthond only have two. While I know from the fiefdom pike-men that a two line formation can deploy smoothly into a single line (with a nice curved formation to boot ; though I haven't tried that on a wall yet, to see if it goes as smoothly : ), I don't know if it's feasible for a three line formation. It may be possible though, and maybe there are better solutions, like a very close rank two lines formation on the basis of the turtle from regular Gondor footmen ?

- If the man the wall ability is to be given to regular archers, which by all means seems right, I believe it would tend to exclude such ability as I suggested (the volley with possible morale effects) as it would tend to make regular archers too powerful, am I wrong ?

- While man-the-wall sounds cool as a formation name, if it's to be usable anywhere (on the wall or not) as most of us suggested, it may be a good idea to come up with a better name ^^.

- Lastly, while I agree about giving the role to regular archers, and finding another role for Morthond archers, the general idea of a sort of “light siege” unit still seems interesting to me (though there is no unit to give it to anymore ^^) : I can rather imagine the free people having a battalion of good archers with powerful bows and special burning arrows to burn down enemy buildings than them having heavy siege machinery even though in films, books and game they fulfill a defensive role. What do you guys think of it ?

Sir_Stig

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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #9 am: 14. Apr 2015, 15:39 »
As far a a name for the formation, "defend the high ground" would be good, assuming it is tied to being higher than your enemies.

I think a nice, tight two row formation would be fine for the archers.

I would keep it limited to just a formation change, no extra abilities would be needed.

For Morthond archers I think maybe a higher melee resistance and extra damage vs monsters would be fine, still makes them useful without becoming crazy powerful.

klantai

  • Bilbos Festgast
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Re: Garrison Archers : a "new" unit for manning the walls
« Antwort #10 am: 14. Apr 2015, 16:19 »
Well, if the formation is granted to regular archers, they may just not have enough Palantir room to have an active ability. It's a shame, I rather liked the idea of raining down a short range volley on opponents ^^.

As for the name of the formation, I think we would need enlightenment from someone of the team regarding whether or not an ability/a formation bonus can be tied to a geographical location. As I see it, I'm not even sure the “on the wall” status is such an easy thing to tell the game engine, so “on higher ground” seems to me more trouble than it's worth. As was said earlier, the use of this “man the wall” formation seems to me like a good opportunity to simulate the range bonus that high-ground provides while not actually implementing it in the game.

Now, if it is actually possible and simple to tell the game that archers are on the walls, it may seem reasonable to make the armour and range bonus only take effect there, in which case the formation would only serve to put the archers in a formation more fitting to manning walls. But as I said before, I'm rather of the mind of NetoD20, that having this formation available everywhere on the map, albeit balanced by the inability to move and vulnerability to melee, could give a nice new dimension to managing your archers.

As far as deployment is concerned, it's true that a tight 2 rows formation, as Sir_Stig suggests would probably do very nicely, and I just thought that it could look even better if the men in the second row were placed behind the gaps between the men in the first row, as is seen in many instances in the movies (and in many other movies for that matter, as it seems an efficient way to position archers) : P.