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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Melkor Bauglir:
I think, we can all agree that, considering what historically happened, the backup-part was the more important one because otherwise Sauron would have just died permanently when Numenor fell.
However the Master Ring aspect is in my opinion massively more destructive: Just imagine an alternative timeline where the Last Alliance didn't defeat Sauron. The elves wouldn't be able to use their Rings (ever!), meaning Lothlorien just straight up ending as a wasteland or at the very least losing its enchantment. Also the Nine's powers would be multiplied and I have no idea if the dwarven greed had any limits with Sauron holding the One. And just imagine the elven leaders actually using their Rings: I always imagined the One Ring mainly as corrupting his users power and turning them against him, something it'd do with the other ringbearers, too, as long as they kept using their Rings (which isn't probably not so easy to stop!). Surely, Galadriel, Elrond, Gil-Galad, etc. are very strong-minded individuals, but so was Saruman. ;) It's totally possible that one of those couldn't resist embracing their Rings power even for their own destruction.
What I'm trying to say is basically: As the name already points out the "horcrux"-aspect was the inherent defensive of the One Ring, meaning it was historically more powerful since Sauron didn't hold the Ring for that long. However his offensive capabilities, him being the Master Ring, I don't want to know what destruction he could have caused if the war ended out drawn out!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

VectorMaximus:
If the Last Alliance failed, I don't think Sauron would need the One anymore. For never before on Mortal Lands had such a host been gathered, nor ever since, and if they were defeated no hope of Victory was there for the Free Peoples. And Sauron would have been master of all Arda, for the Valar alone could defeat him then, but never again shall their host enter the world changed and cross the sea ere the ending of the World. But I get your point.

If Sauron hadn't lost the one, and it became a protracted war across all of Middle-Earth, I agree that the controlling ability would have been greater. For as you said, the loss of the 3 would have been great indeed. While I still think Lorien and Imladris would have endured (they were both established in the Second Age, after all), they would have been greatly diminished and faded all the faster. I personally don't think any of the Elven leaders are dumb enough to actually use their rings if Sauron held the One. The 3 don't have an addictive effect, to my knowledge.

And yes, the Nazgul would have become more fell indeed, but I don't think the Dwarves could have had any worse fate from their rings then what they already had. Remember that the Dwarf-Lords already wore their rings when Sauron wore the One, for they could not perceive him through the rings. So, the greed they experienced already was the worst that could happen.

Just as a general question, do you believe the dwarves of Khazad-Dum when they claim that their ring was not given to them by Sauron, but by Celebrimbor in friendship? I personally doubt it.

Walküre:
Yes, what I wanted to stress is that very importance that the 'horcrux element' eventually had, even though Sauron's prominent desire was the control of each race via the Rings of Power.

That's why it was probably the most ingenious aspect, because it kind of worked as a life insurance for Sauron, as he had rightly guessed  ;)

As far as I know, all the Seven Rings were given to the Dwarf Lords by Sauron, once he regained them after having waged war against Eregion and Eriador.
So, either is it a lie or a wrong tale that kept on being told among Dwarves for centuries.

Adamin:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 22. Feb 2016, 11:34 ---Ok, I made a little further research on the topic, and, yes, the game's timeline would be legitimate in a very purely theoretical perspective.

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I'll take what I can get. :D
Of course, there have to be certain compromise for an adaptation, and I can accept that you evaluate them differently.
On the other hand, I can finally kind of agree to your term of Saurons secret formula for Ringmaking. I haven't seen any clear evidence for this, until you guys reminded me that the Three Rings loose their Powers through the destruction of the One Ring. Since they haven't been made with Saurons involvement, their elemental mode of functioning still has to be connected to Sauron, otherwise their bond to Sauron (or his Ring) wouldn't make sense.



--- Zitat von: Saruman der Bunte am 22. Feb 2016, 14:07 ---What I think is an intersting topic (when talking about the Rings of power) is wether it was a mistake by Sauron to forge the One Ring.
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I wouldn't say mistake, but definetly a miscalculation on Saurons part. Putting a large part of his power into the Ring was a risk that he willingly took to master the Elves. Tolkien makes that clear, as I also quoted a while ago.


--- Zitat von: J.R.R. Tolkien, Letter 131: to Milton Waldman ---He [Sauron] rules a growing empire from the great dark tower of Barad-dûr in Mordor, near to the Mountain of Fire, wielding the One Ring.
But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring.
[...]
This was the essential weakness he had introduced into his situation in his effort (largely unsuccessful) to enslave the Elves, and in his desire to establish a control over the minds and wills of his servants.
[...]
There was another weakness: if the One Ring was actually unmade, annihilated, then its power would be dissolved, Sauron's own being would be diminished to vanishing point, and he would be reduced to a shadow, a mere memory of malicious will. But that he never contemplated nor feared.
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--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 22. Feb 2016, 17:19 ---Sauron's purpose was not at all – apart from having the chance to control the Elves' and the other races' minds – achieving even more direct personal power, being himself already at the apex, as a Maia in Middle Earth with no restrain on his capabilities.
His true purpose was exactly tying his essence/Will/powers to a material dimension, so that he would have avoided the ineluctable dispersion of his powers had he been defeated by any means, especially in case he had had his own body destroyed (as it exactly happened in Númenor).

Therefore, we could say that he had kind of foreseen what could have happened and exactly happened later in Númenor;
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I'm really sorry Val, but I have to vehemently disagree with that.

There is no evidence whatsoever for Sauron conciously planning for the Ring to be his bond to the world, nor for him being particularly foresighted. His purpose for the Ring is very cleary stated in the Silmarillion:


--- Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age ---for his [Saurons] desire was to set a bond upon the Elves and to bring them under his vigilance.
Now the Elves made many rings; but secretly Sauron made One Ring to rule all the others, and their power was bound up with it, to be subject wholly to it and to last only so long as it too should last. And much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;
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Of course you can as always count in some elven bias or ignorance about their enemy, but since it matches Tolkiens prose description in the aformentioned letter, I'd say it is legit.
Sauron wanted to control the Elves, so he convinced them to make Rings of Power and secrectly forged a Master Ring that dominated them. But in order to do that, he had to insert a large part of his Power into the Ring. The Minds/Rings of the Elves were so powerful, that only a more powerful Mind/Ring could dominate them. The tying of his essence was a neccesity for Plan A to work, and I don't see anything that suggests he was already counting on Plan B at that moment. It was a risk that Sauron willingly took.

I would even go so far as to suspect that Sauron was himself somewhat positively surprised about this convenient side effect of his Ring. As you said it yourself: He's a Maia, an immortal spiritual being. Why should he ever decide to tie himself to the physical world, and thus restrain himself?

Saurons overall purpose or plan in Middle-earth is also stated in this chapter:


--- Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age ---Seeing the desolation of the world, Sauron said in his heart that the Valar, having overthrown Morgoth, had again forgotten Middle-earth; and his pride grew apace. He looked with hatred on the Eldar, and he feared the Men of Númenor who came back at whiles in their ships to the shores of Middle-earth; but for long he dissembled his mind and concealed the dark designs that he shaped in his heart.
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After the Destruction of Beleriand Sauron stayed behind and resented the Valar for not actively doing more/anything in Middle-earth (contrary to, you know, Morgoth). So he grew prideful and made up his own designs for the world. In other words: He wanted to surpass the Valar and Morgoth by improving Middle-earth himself. Strictly according to his plans, under his strict lordship of course.
And here again we see Tolkiens motive of domination as an act of evil.




--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 22. Feb 2016, 17:19 ---Yes, Sauron is just smart  xD
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You know how hard it is to argue that? Because I don't really want to deny that in general. Of course Sauron was mighty, cunning, dangerous, cruel, subtle, crafty, and many other things. And after all, Sauron conquered more lands of Middle-earth than Morgoth ever tried.

But the way you portray him, as a forsighted mastermind, that played everyone from the beginning, is just... your headcanon, sorry.
Let's just think of the maaaany moments where Saurons plans didn't go the way he expected.

Like when he sat in Tol-in-Gauroth and thought:
"Well obviously I am the prophesied Wolf that will kill Huan the Hound!", and then got his butt kicked by Lúthien.
Or when he sat in Númenór and thought:
"Well finally I'll never have to worry about the Edain again, Haha!", and later sank while Elendil & Co. escaped.
Or during the War of the Ring when he thought:
"Well naturally they will try to use my Ring against me in war, they're even sending Halfling spies to scout my armies!", and we all know how that ended. ;)

Walküre:
Those quotations about the One Ring seem to be really explanatory and clear; what could the poor Val could add to such a direct source?  :P

Still, I have the feeling that we are in front of that kind of situation in which some clear statements regarding a specific subject can be significantly expanded (or changed a bit in their meaning) by not specifically told yet equally important common traits that we can often recollect here and there, having a general view of the portrait.
Given that I myself wrote that the core of Sauron's plan was achieving control of the other Rings, do those lines really exclude the other considerations I previously made?

Specifically, having in mind who is Sauron (history, race, powers, traits,...), and taking into consideration that he is definitely different from Morgoth by his personal usage of malice in much more subtle and deceiving ways, is it really plausible thinking that the Dark Lord was completely unaware of that peculiar aspect while he objectified his Will/essence, thus seeming to ignore the fundamental and deep characteristics involved in the relationship between spirit and physical body for the Ainur?
Personally, as I wrote above, I think that this 'horcrux aspect' served Sauron's plans and purpose so well to let it be defined solely by pure fortuity  :)

Speaking about Sauron's foresight, making a list of his own mistakes doesn't theoretically prove my theory wrong, I guess.
What I wanted to mean was that we can say that Sauron's schemes were eventually the most elaborate ones; meaning essentially that his webs reached almost everyone, one way or the other, with different degrees and with different outcomes (from the Great Cataclysm in the Second Age to the bitter fate of the Elves in seeing their wishes of endurance in Middle Earth by the action of the Three Rings frustrated and finally vanished by the end of the Third Age).
Also because I believe I could make a list of all the mistakes and wrong calculations of the Eldar, for example, beginning with the choice of the Exile, resulting in a new course (along with the known sorrows) for the future of Middle Earth and Arda itself; but I don't really want to disturb Ms. Thatcher again with another list of Nos  :D

I'm not really the greatest supporter of Sauron or Morgoth, as you know, but I have a deep respect for their role.
And, I always feel that remembering their status adds even further glory to their fiercest opponents: our beloved Eldar  8-)


At least, we agree about the secret formula, and it's definitely not a meaningless aspect  xD

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