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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Linhir am 27. Feb 2016, 01:08 ---Because i know that you like move posts from one threads to another, when there's any reference to other matter than thread.  :D

--- Ende Zitat ---

You know, it's just one of the duties of Moderators  :D


--- Zitat von: Linhir am 27. Feb 2016, 01:08 ---You only rewritten dry facts that are known, lets use brains for a moment.  xD
Do you think that was actual any attack of these beasts around Edoras? And when Eomer returned with his man, there was a battle? Or it was just a hunt for few individuals? How many could there be? It's new race bred by Sauron in third age to grow fear in hearts of enemies? Or it's leftovers from the first age? In our pop culture werewolves are immortal, are Tolkien's beasts immortal too?

Just speak your opinion, not only well known facts.  xD

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Well, if you read again my comment, you might discover that I tried too to wander throughout the very few known facts that we have from the direct source, making hypotheses based on reasonable elements.
That operation of mine is exactly called speculation, something that is very common and thoroughly needed in this lore space, as you can see  ;)

The questions you are trying to answer about the Werewolves in the Third Age can't thus be answered completely.
My previous statement related to the very Third Age/War of the Ring, though, may infer that most of what you want to prove as possible could be indeed legitimate.
So, if Sauron or Saruman or other evil souls ever used them in battle, they must have 'just' bred the offspring of the original creatures; and, no, I don't really think they are immortal, given that the Silmarillion gives us references regarding the Werewolves' vital cycle and that immortality is definitely an iconic prerogative of the Ainur and the Elves.

If you are not acquainted with it yet, reading deeply in one's own words is what we, lore guys, do for a living  xD

Linhir:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 27. Feb 2016, 00:47 ---It is very likely that immense packs of these creatures were massively used in the War of Wrath against the Host of Valinor, along with every other kind of foul monsters that the Evil managed to summon.
Therefore, this leads us to think that the Werewolves were almost totally exterminated by the end of the First Age, and that their weaker descendants endure as solitary threats in wild lands; unless, obviously, they were bred and used with precise purposes and with evil intentions, as it exactly happened during the War of the Ring or other great conflicts.

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Yes, you were speculating. But, with much generalising. Let's take step further!

I think that i missed this all vital cycle in Silmarillion. I'll check it out later. But for now, I think that they are immortal. They don't getting older, and can't die of natural causes, but they can be slaughtered! (Just like dragons or balrogs.)
And I think that most of them was killed during battles of War of Wrath, and then during Sinking of Beleriand. But yet, some of them might survive these events, and wandered east, to Dunland or even Mirkwood. There, they lived and reproduced for many, many years, but theirs brood wasn't able to oppose death, so they outlived them (what was keeping their numbers low).
Propably during second age, they took part in war of the last alliance, by Sauron's side, and again, they were decimated.
And when Saruman gained alliegance of Dunlendings and sent them to attack rohan villages, werewolves were amongst them with it's brood.

Part of brood was propably killed during small skimrishes, and rest, along with part of original beasts of Morgoth, when Eomer came back as King.

So... still, few of them might survived (no more than 10, I think).

That's my theory about this race. I think that's consistent with Tolkien's lore, and could be used for Edain purposes. ;)

Adamin:

--- Zitat von: Linhir am 27. Feb 2016, 09:27 ---That's my theory about this race. I think that's consistent with Tolkien's lore, [...]

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Well, no, because nothing in your theory is based on the lore.  [ugly]
But you wanna use brains, yes? Okay then.


--- Zitat von: The Fellowship of the Ring, Many Meetings ---[Gandalf:]"[...] Not all his [Saurons] servants and chattels are wraiths! There are orcs and trolls, there are wargs and werewolves; and there have been and still are many Men, [...]"
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This is the only mentioning of Werewolves in the Lord of the Rings. They are never mentioned in combination with Rohan or Edoras ever. And since it is Gandalf mentioning him, we can't really be sure if he's refering to Werewolves being Saurons recent servants, or if he's just refering to Saurons history with Werewolves way back in the First Age.

Their mortality is by the way not mentioned in the Silmarillion; at least I haven't found anything about that. Generally I'm not really sure how to answer this though, because:


--- Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Lúthien ---Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.
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Werewolves in Tolkiens world are not defined by being shapeshifters (that only Sauron did), but by being possessed wolves. They are animals with an evil spirit forced into them, thus giving them more malice and probably more strength.
So I think it's hard to speculate on their lifespan. What kind of spirit was used by Sauron (a lesser Maiar, or just an Orc spirit)? How exactly did the spirit affect the wolves body?

My best guess would be that while the spirit is probably immortal, the wolves body is most likely not. ^^
So I think a Werewolf in Arda would eventually die.


But, there is still some hope for your Third Age Werewolves. They might actually be Wargs. xD


--- Zitat von: The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, 297 Drafts for a letter to 'Mr Rang' ---The word Warg used in The Hobbit and the L.R. for an evil breed of (demonic) wolves [...] the noun common to the Northmen of these creatures.
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What exactly is a demonic wolf? It might simply be a wolf that is possessed by a demon, or evil spirit. ;)
So it might actually be that there is not that much of a difference between Wargs and Werewolves. As the above quote states, Warg is just the name that the Northmen of Rhovannion gave these creatures.

And I think it is kind of elegant to think of it that way. It would mean that there still is a similiar creature to werewolves in the later Middle-earth, but their name evolved due to the modern inhabitants

Walküre:
I agree with Adamin about the Werewolves' nature and regarding the Wargs as possible weaker remnants of a once terrible kind.
Furthermore, I would like to add another reference of the Silmarillion that refers specifically to Carcharoth  :)


--- Zitat ---There dismay took them, for at the gate was a guard of whom no tidings had yet gone forth. Rumour of he knew not what designs abroad among the princes of the Elves had come to Morgoth, and ever down the aisles of the forest was heard the baying of Huan, the great hound of war, whom long ago the Valar unleashed. Then Morgoth recalled the doom of Huan, and he chose one from among the whelps of the race of Draugluin; and he fed him with his own hand upon living flesh, and put his power upon him. Swiftly the wolf grew, until he could creep into no den, but lay huge and hungry before the feet of Morgoth. There the fire and anguish of hell entered into him, and he became filled with a devouring spirit, tormented, terrible, and strong. Carcharoth, the Red Maw, he is named in the tales of those days, and Anfauglir, the Jaws of Thirst. And Morgoth set him to lie unsleeping before the doors of Angband, lest Huan come.
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J.R.R. Tolkien – The Silmarillion, Of Beren and Lúthien

So, we can clearly assume that those 'evil spirits' that are mentioned in the other quotations can also be legitimately seen as the direct evil influence of Sauron or Morgoth that endow wolves (or other foul creatures) with power, turning them into the real Werewolves we read about.
Morgoth follows that exact operation, breeding and shaping what would have been the most dreadful among them.
The main recurrent theme, thus, is the needed presence of a mighty evil being that plays the part of the primary agent in the creation of the said creatures.

I again reaffirm my disapproval about their immortality.
This characteristic is iconically something that belongs to the Ainur and the Eldar.
Corrupted creatures – now we have the clear reference to their corruption – are highly unlikely to be defined by an immortal body and spirit.

Linhir:
Well it seems that only in polish translation of trilogy, werewolves were mentioned in context of propably raiding Edoras.  ;)

And I never called them shapeshifters. I know that it's only "Big Bad Wolves".  [ugly]
But, i don't think that they are related to wargs, it's just different races.

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