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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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VectorMaximus:
I'm interested to hear thoughts on this; when do you think the Numenoreans became unsaveable? I personally feel like if Tar-Miriel was allowed to be Ruling Queen the Faithful party could have become more secure and better entrenched, after 2 successive reigns that would have allied with them.

Yet even Ar-Pharazon was a close friend of Elendil's when they were young. Prideful, distrustful of the Valar and the Elves, yes, but not evil. Its only when Sauron is brought to Numenor does it seem unsalvageable, like the Downfall is doomed to happen. And personally, his actions in the Downfall of Numenor was his greatest act of Evil, even over the forging of the One.

Walküre:
I agree with you.
The role Sauron had in the Downfall of the most powerful kingdom of Arda at that time (the Undying Lands excluded) was probably his most evil act yet planned with an extreme and malicious intelligence.

Once Númenórë sank into the Sea, the World was upset, broken and reshaped into a sphere.
Moreover, the Immortal Lands were separated from the outer World, and so would have they remained until the End of Time.

If I really have to choose a precise moment, I would say that the definitive turning point was the war waged against Valinor itself, begun with the preparation of the legendary mighty fleet of the proud Human King.
The idea itself of waging war against the Blessed Realm is probably the worst crime ever conceived; a clear action against the order of the Universe.

As I already wrote in this section, I think that the storm and all the eagle-like threatening black clouds, that Manwë sent as a warning in the preceding days of the final military campaign, exactly represent all the Valar's King's wrath.
But, given his purely good heart, I'm sure that Manwë felt also really betrayed, disappointed and sincerely regretful, foreseeing what would have happened to the Númenóreans.


--- Zitat ---Then the Eagles of the Lords of the West came up out of the dayfall, and they were arrayed as for battle, advancing in a line the end of which diminished beyond sight; and as they came their wings spread ever wider, grasping the sky. But the West burned red behind them, and they glowed beneath, as though they were lit with a flame of great anger, so that all Númenor was illumined as with a smouldering fire; and men looked upon the faces of their fellows, and it seemed to them that they were red with wrath.
--- Ende Zitat ---
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth



But still, in their wrath, the Valar didn't really want to confront directly and personally destroy the human beings (direct creations of Eru) that dared to attack them; nor would they ever wanted to bring ruin in the heart of Valinor even with victory at hand, considering the power unleashed by Ar-Pharazôn.
When they called for the intervention of Ilúvatar, they also laid down their authority in Arda and waited for the final judgement.


--- Zitat ---Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of Arda.
--- Ende Zitat ---
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion, Akallabêth

Do you see some traces of Mercy and deep Love in the Valar's act, given also that they later prayed for the sake of the Faithful?  :)

VectorMaximus:
I do see mercy. I believe that Illuvater or the Valar (not sure which) sent the Faithful Exiles to Lindon, where they would be received honorably and kindly. They could have landed in Umbar, which was dominated by the King's Men, and been destroyed.

Walküre:
I always see Mercy whenever I think that the Valar could have personally vanquished and killed the Númenóreans, even in the most cruel ways, having all the authority and reasons to do that.

It seems that respecting and caring for the Children of Ilúvatar's free arbitrary thinking and life has always been a boundary that the Lords of the West imposed on themselves (except very exceptional cases, at least, but not this precise exceptional threat).

That's why they avoid a direct involvement and remit their legitimacy to govern Arda in Ilúvatar's hands.

The_Necromancer0:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGdp5_12zW0
About this scene. If the WK hadn't been distracted by the Rohirrim would he have actually killed Gandalf? It seems possible since we see (read) about Wormtongue killing Saruman but Saruman was taken by surprise. Would Gandalf have revealed the full extent of his power or would he have been killed? Would that have changed much to the story? Apart from the whole lost moral for the troops?

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