[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings

Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

<< < (37/49) > >>

Fine:
Well, if you simply look at the situation at the Black Gate - without the destruction of the One Ring, the army of the West would have been soundly defeated. So yes, I believe Sauron did not need the One Ring to claim dominion over Middle-earth during the War of the Ring. Had it not been found by Bilbo, Gondor (and afterwards, the remaining realms of Men, Elves and Dwarves) would have fallen.

The_Necromancer0:
Definitely, there are also another quote I'd like to bring to the table on this matter.
By Denethor as reported by Gandalf during the last debate:
"You may triumph on the fields of the Pelennor for a day, but against the Power that has now arisen there is no victory."

After this quote Gandalf goes on saying that the next assault will be bigger than the siege of Minas Tirith and finishes by telling the Captains of the West that whether they take up arms or decide to hold a siege they'll be overwhelmed. (Gandalf must be fun at parties) So it truly seems that whether or not the Ring was found Sauron would have triumphed less Elrond found that host of the Elves in the armour of the Elder Fays he desired, but even the. Nothing would have been more unsure

-Mandos-:
Even if I think that the armies of the west would have survived longer if they hadn't marched to the black gate, I too believe that they would have slowly lost to Sauron. That is, if they wouldn't receive any help. I'm not quite sure, but I believe that the Valar would interfere if Sauron would be seizing control over middle earth. It is said, if I remember correctly, that the Valar dont want to act directly (thus sending the Istari), but I cant believe that they would let the free people fall (especially the humans who have no chance to sail to Tol Eressea).
That's a lot of would and believe, but I guess it's an interesting topic. What must happen that the Valar interefere directly?

Walküre:
I too personally rely more on that quotation from the Silmarillion, and it's very interesting to see how the might of the Free People had been diminishing until the War of the Ring and how Sauron managed to plan his return carefully, gathering all the disbanded evil forces under his command for the last time. Beside the natural and progressive departure of the valiant Eldar from Middle Earth during the Third Age, it's also very indicative that the very descendants of Númenor had lost so much power and their previous merry days of glory had been gone.

I don't think that the Valar would have ever intervened against Sauron, if the Free People had been defeated. Of course, they have always cared about the mortals' fate and they had thus sent the Istari for the exact purpose of aiding them in what would have been their most difficult challenge. Only, the decision of the Valar for a non-intervention policy was quite absolute at the end of the War of Wrath, lest the World be devastated again by immense destruction. Adding to this, Ilúvatar itself divided Aman and Eressëa from Arda anyway, with the great Cataclysm (something that the Powers of the West could have never done themselves and could never reverse). Also, I remember a line from Galadriel in The Two Towers, when she foresees what would have happened with the triumph of Sauron: she states that the Dark Lord would have had dominion over all Middle Earth and even onto the ending of the World itself.

As much fictional this line might be, I personally find it very appropriate. The primary interest of the Valar is safeguarding the destiny of the Elves in Aman, who are bound to live until Arda itself and Aman exist (the very Ainur share this destiny). The fate of the Mortals has always been undoubtedly harsh, due to their very weaker and feeble nature; they were nonetheless granted the Gift of Ilúvatar: that is, the possibility of leaving the physical dimension and the inexorable burden of time completely, to live alongside Eru in its eternal Timeless Halls. A place that, as God itself, has always existed in the past, always exists in the present and forever shall do in the future.

Based on the prophecy of Mandos and what Manwë and Varda might know, the Good is eventually destined to prevail; not until Ilúvatar itself purifies Arda and remakes it again from the beginning (something that can only happen at the End).

Walküre:
Good evening, gentle attendees of this thread. I have an interesting question to pose: how do you imagine the grey and sad Halls of Mandos to be?

As far as I can recall, there are no passages in the lore that describe exactly their actual geographical and physical conformation (if we can still talk about a really 'physical' dimension, as the ones in the outer ordinary World). Personally, the most convincing and accurate speculation I have ever read so far is the one shown in this detailed map of Valinor and also in other articles here and there on the Internet.

Based on this theory, the Halls of Mandos are actually caverns (either on the surface of the earth or excavated deep in the ground). As the lore tells, the realm of the Vala Námo/Mandos is nonetheless located in the Blessed Realm (that is, within the Pelóri), but on its westernmost and furthest ends; thus, away from the joyful atmosphere of the radiant dwellings of the Ainur and the Elves, and characterised by an evil-less sadness which is emanated mostly by the Elven souls that linger there, mourning and waiting for the proper moment to be admitted to the eternal bliss of Valinor in a living body (we know that a few spirits, as Fëanor, will never find peace again until the End).


This other picture, representing the heartfelt plea of Lúthien to the Judge Vala, seems to suggest a more mysterious and open-air concept. Anyway, I would really like to know your opinions about this significant theme  :)

Navigation

[0] Themen-Index

[#] Nächste Seite

[*] Vorherige Sete