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Autor Thema: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates  (Gelesen 102938 mal)

Fredius

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #195 am: 3. Jan 2017, 19:30 »
The moment they decided to deal with Angmar in that way, they did so because the particular context of the faction permitted them to do so; in that sense, they were also forced to rely on fictional material, and I don't absolutely deem this fact negative (taking into account those precise boundaries). Their choice was thus completely justified. Yet factions like Mordor, Gondor or Lothlórien are a very different case: I don't think there is a possible ground to make reasonable comparisons with Angmar then. Angmar's premises can't be applied to Lórien. It's plainly comprehensible.

It's exactly like I said, adding fictional material is not negative, however I disagree that it is justified for the reasonings you gave. First of all, the faction Lothlorien is not "Lothlorien", it's a combination of different factions, with Lothlorien being the main faction. Adding Anduin to it won't change that, as a matter of fact the Anduin already has the Beornings, I'm just expanding that subfaction. Because of those reasons Lothlorien does not belong to the same list as Mordor and Gondor, since those 2 factions' regions and units belong to them. Dol Guldur, Morgul and Cirith Ungol are part of Mordor, the fiefdoms of Gondor are part of Gondor, while Mirkwood, Beornings or the Ents are not part of the Kingdom of Lothlorien. This is the difference I'm trying to tell you all this time [ugly]!

Regarding the cinematographic atmosphere that the game should preserve, your solution is a quite non-sequitur statement, as its logical deductions aren't very much coherent, in my personal view. The cinematographic issue is an issue because we can't dispose of cinematographic transpositions from LOTR (or from the Hobbit) of those characters in the first place. They're not present in the films. So, thinking to solve the dilemma via opting for a resemblance to the films' portrait doesn't resolve it indeed, because those or other choices would nonetheless be fictional anyway; a person's interpretation based on a person's own thoughts. In light of these considerations, I think this issue just can't be dealt with properly, if not opting for the 'Angmar-way'.

And I don't see why, design-wise, it's a bad thing to add elements that are not directly from the movie, but still are influenced by it. A lot of units in the mod are design wise based on fiction, but still they keep the movie influences in it. Even the recent Guards of Orthanc concept art is fully fictional, and nobody seems to mind that, including you chief :P. However, it does keep certain movie elements in it, for example the helmet that looks like that of Gondor, or the spear that resembles the Tower of Orthanc. If I did the same thing with the Men of Anduin (which I was planning to do), would you still disagree with that?

Nevertheless, since I'm always keen on reading new proposals, I'm really looking forward to that. Good luck with it  :)

Thanks man. Look I know your love for Lothlorien very well, and I know you want to keep it as much of an Elven faction of beauty as possible, and because of that I will try to find a way in my proposal to not destroy the current faction as it is now, but just enrich it a little bit :).

Fredius

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #196 am: 24. Jan 2017, 21:15 »
To celebrate the return of the forums I've found something creepy and interesting in the Middle-Earth universe, muhahaha!!

Remember when Gandalf said that "there are older and fouler things in the deep places of the world"? He is not only referring to the Balrog, but creatures without a name or race assigned to them: Nameless Things. According to Gandalf, these things are even older than Sauron himself, and have been digging the tunnels of the Misty Mountains far before the Dwarves or the Balrog did.

Zitat
Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.
- Gandalf

Zitat
Some of these caves, too, go back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still in odd corners, slinking and nosing about.
- The Hobbit

Sadly, nobody knows how they look like, and how they even came to the world. They are a mystery comparable to Ungoliant, whose origins is unknown as well. So I hope you can still sleep after reading this ghehehe [ugly]....

Source:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nameless_Things
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Nameless_Things

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #197 am: 24. Jan 2017, 22:03 »
1. Your coming to these shores is quite late, servant of Sauron and Morgoth  :D

2. It's true that Ungoliant's history is not explained well in the annals of Arda, but, as far as I always grasped, the customary interpretation of the lore tells us that she's a Maia. The fact that she was capable of conjuring such dreadful and anti-light/matter-like powers depends on very ghoulish circumstances...  :(

Fredius

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #198 am: 24. Jan 2017, 22:12 »
Hmm never saw that, but hey, a wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to!  This rule applies to Black Numenorean wizards as well xD.

Ah well, the Nameless Things are theorised to be Maia as well, but I want the lore on these creatures to be like the history of how man learnt to milk a cow; dark and mysterious.

Also it seems that WETA made a concept art for them in the Two Towers artbook. I will try to search for it and post it here if I have any results.

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #199 am: 24. Jan 2017, 22:54 »
Zitat
Your coming to us is as the footsteps of doom. You bring great evil here[...]

It's not that I don't like obscure tales from unknown times (I love them!), but I do believe that everything should be eventually comprehensible, at a minimal extent, at least. Therefore, whether it be Tolkien himself or customary interpretations deducted from speculations (a sort of common law), one ought always be able to recognise certain common aspects of the whole mythological corpus of the Professor: that is, recurrent themes or properties that help people understand things, some very clear boundaries (namely, the fact that only the Ainur and the Elves may live eternally in Aman) and main characteristics which tie everything together. So, what prima facie seems to be illogical and in opposition to prior events may be clarified (not wholly) by those said common traits. It's de facto the Zeitgeist of Arda.

For example, I read that some regard Ungoliant as an unknown creature (superior even to the Ainur) that had been dwelling in Arda before the very arrival of the Angels, or that she can be considered as the personification of the Void itself (something that would place her very close to Ilúvatar or even turn her in a sort of anti-God). That's why, albeit loving elements that are surrounded in an aura of pure mystery, it's also quite imperative that these elements be respectful of the most basic foundations/rules of Arda. But I agree with you, since mystery does play an important part too; and Tolkien sometimes contradicting himself just conveys this sense even more. Yet I find too excessive cases (as that interpretation of Ungoliant) very disruptive too.

OakenShield224

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #200 am: 25. Jan 2017, 20:39 »
Hello everyone. I have a question about the Universe of Middle Earth. Here is a quote from Fellowship of the Ring.
Zitat
So the days slipped away, as each morning dawned bright and fair, and each evening followed cool and clear. But autumn was waning fast; slowly the golden light faded to pale silver, and the lingering leaves fell from the naked trees. A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.
I was curious about the red star. One theory online about it was that it was a representation of Mars, the Bringer of War. However, are there any other explanations for what it is?
Also, the sun and moon are both controlled by Maiar, but what information is there about any other planets in Arda? Are there any references to planets in any of the texts?

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #201 am: 25. Jan 2017, 23:20 »
According to the reasoning addressed above, about customary interpretations, I guess we don't have much information on something such as planets. I think that the only 'planet' is Arda itself (an inhabitable planet). Any other celestial creation can't be anything else but one of Varda's ancient stars, which are exactly meant to emanate light and energy.

Otherwise, as I pointed out in my previous comment, the very concept of other planets could be quite disruptive indeed: their physical shape should be the one that Arda was previously characterised by (before the fall of Númenor), and so they would resemble flat masses of matter.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #202 am: 28. Feb 2017, 04:23 »
I debated internally where to put this for a while and in the end I decided to post it here.

This is my view on the age old question, what would have happened if Sauron had managed to regain the One Ring? It's sort halfway between debate and fan fiction which was why I was debating where to post it. I'm just gonna put my views on it out there and then I'd be more than happy to politely debate with people who have different opinions.

One thing that really defines how it all goes down is where and when the One Ring is regained. Do the Nazgul succeed in their assault atop Weathertop? Do they manage to capture it when Frodo goes through Osgiliath? During the Minas Morgul/Cirith Ungol period? Other times that I can't be bothered to list?

For this particular debate, I'm gonna pick the climax of the books and of the movies: the Battle at the Black Gate. And as to what trigger that bend in this timeline, I was thinking it could be something as simple as Sam deciding to kill Gollum during their encounter, at the entrance of Mount Doom. Therefore, Frodo claims the ring and escapes with all ten of his fingers but is later caught by the Nazgul who strike him down and bring the Ring to their master, and this is where it all begins. So, considering everything above we now resume a bullet point version of this fanfiction/theorizing.

-The Nazgul do briefly flee to get the Ring back and Gandalf gives his line: "Stand Men of the West! Stand and wait! This is the hour of doom!". However, the retrieval of the One is successful and the host of Mordor is once again filled with rage.

-The Captains of the West's army slowly falls before the unending hordes of Mordor, our heroes are the last few standing but are cut down eventually one by one.

-Gandalf is the last to fall, fighting to the very end until Sauron himself enters the battlefield and strikes him down.

-The Eagles are overpowered by the Nazgul who are now much strengthened by the Ring and the return of the King (Witch-King that is), who now has a body once again thanks to the power of the One.

-Sauron for a while rebuilds his armies and then sends them out once again against Minas Tirith, the city falls with ease it has no gate and his manned by only a few soldiers who lose all hope seeing the black army of Mordor pouring onto the fields of Pellenor.

-Faramir and Eowyn are the last to fall, still weak but fighting to the end defending the White Tree, who is then set ablaze once they are vanquished.

-Because of this theory's starting points, the battle of Dale has been won by the army of Sauron, the Evil Men swept through the defences of Erebor after a long battle and entered the great halls slaughtering all in their path. Then this army joins with the one sieging Mirkwood, tipping the scales in their favor. What can Thranduil do against such a vast horde? Lothlorien is safe for now but siege from all side and it's outer border has been burnt down

At this point it does get harder, there are many possibilities and outcomes as to what might happen next but I will try to do my best. As it stands, Men have suffered a terrible loss in the destruction of Minas Tirith and the Elves and Dwarves have lost the North but it will be less detailed since many factors can now influence how events happen.

-Considering the relative distance of everything, it is likely that Mordor's army will sweep through the remains of Gondor, the Nazgul crushing all hope in the heart of men and leading multiple assaults throughout Gondor.

-They then push toward Rohan, virtually undefended and burn it down to the ground, the peasants of Rohan are brave but there is nothing they can do against such vast hordes made up of all manner of creatures.

-Sauron has not been idle, breeding all sort of foul beasts in the pits of Barad Dur, enhanced with magic who now come to reinforce his army. (Nothing amazing, just stuff like smarter trolls, stronger orcs).

- Sauron now makes way for Lorien, but before he can reach it the Mordor host manage to breach the borders: Nenya has turned against its user, and while it is not enough to completely corrupt Galadriel, she can no longer use it to protect her realm. A last battle for Middle Earth starts all the forces of Good opposing Sauron in the hope that they might slow his advance enough.

-But the power of Mordor is too much, everyday fouler beasts emerge from the enemy ranks and the Nazgul are ever present, keeping the ground troops motivated (aka being more scary than the elves) and the sky empty of hope as their fell beasts seem to cover all of the stars. Every day do the free people fight, pushing back Mordor but every night Mordor attacks once again, using the cover of darkness to their advantage.

-The last of the creatures of Good pour in: Ents, Beorning and Eagles. The battle goes on for ages, Orcs fall by the thousands but more keep coming and whenever they manage to strike down a free folk it leaves an empty gap in the line. In addition, the victorious Evil Men now battle with zeal: they have seen the power of Mordor and it fills their heart with an unending will to battle.

- Elrond comes to reinforce Lorien, briefly tipping the scale in their favor. However, Sauron arrives just at this moment and goes straight for him. Elrond soon falls, followed by Celeborn. The Evil Host keeps pushing until there is nowhere to run, in the very heart of Caras Galadhon, Galadriel makes her final stand facing Sauron but without her Ring of power she is no match for a fully powered Sauron, she is struck down and Lorien falls.

-Sauron sweeps through the rest Middle Earth, killing Saruman, once he find him, for betraying him. He burns the Shire down and enslaves its people. Evil's victory is complete.

After that, it's even harder to think of what could possibly happen. Either the Valar abandon Middle Earth to its faith, staying safely in Valinor till Dagor Dagorath or they march out against Sauron, resulting in their easy victory. Or maybe, the events cause Dagor Dagorath to never happen and the Valar remain passive and Sauron gets to rule till the end of times. Who knows?

I'll be glad to fix any mistakes I might have made if anybody points them out to me. I'm impatient to hear thoughts about this if scenario. Hopefully, I triggered a least a couple of you which should lead to an interesting debate, all under the watchful eye of the great moderator that lives on this forum, an elf-admin, of terrible power.

EDIT: I've fixed the slight timeline issues I had, it does make it a lot less of a fair fight but that's just the most likely series of event in my eyes.
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Feb 2017, 10:43 von The_Necromancer0 »
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Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #203 am: 28. Feb 2017, 09:48 »
Hmm, an interesting topic. I'm sure, I'll reply more in depth later, for now I'll be brief:
 - I think you made a couple of wrong starting points. As far as I remember the Easterlings lost at Erebor only after the Ring was destroyed and were sieging the mountain during the battle at the Black Gate. Thus Sauron's victory would have been even more crushing and considering...
 - Lothlorien's and Mirkwood's armies destroyed Dol Guldur after the the war was essentially over. Meaning, even his northern base of operation would have been intact. ;)

And then I think, Sauron would indeed rule for eternity. Actually, the reason for this thought is the more interesting one because it's not "'cause evil"! I guess, allowed the Valar to continuously return to Middle Earth and fix this mess, completely ruins the story for me, because then the stakes are basically non-existant and I'd really ask myself, why they do anything at all. Imagine Gandalf saying to Frodo: "Remember, he must never get the Ring! Otherwise Middle Earth is doomed forever... Nah, not forever... Probably a couple of years, then the Valars will show up and fix everything anyways... Meaning my work here is 100% pointless. Well, guess I'll do something else then!" Obviously that would never happen and it also misses 100% the tone of Middle Earth, but giving the good guys a chance to recover, after they basically did everything wrong, is slightly lame in my opinion. Now that's obviously just from a storytelling perspective.
However even from a historical perspective: Isn't Valinor removed from this world forever? As far as I remember that was basically the final result of Numenors destruction (funnily also Sauron's work!) thus I doubt the Valar could just walk Middle Earth again.

And as a last point: I think, you overestimate the importance of orcs in Mordor's ranks. Not to say, they weren't important, but them making up the entire army is a relic from the movies. In the books (you are obviously referring too since Frodo doesn't move to Osgiliath) that evil men make up for a strong part if not most part of Sauron's forces.


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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #204 am: 28. Feb 2017, 10:27 »
Damn, that's a pretty major mistake I made here. I was sure that I had double checked everything but yet you are indeed right, the forces of Rhun were defeated on the 25th March, that changes a lot of the story looks like I'm gonna have to make some big edits. I'll also sprinkle in some more evil men in there, I do my best to stick my the books but some of the minor details still escape me, thanks for pointing out the mistakes.

I'm looking forward to your more in depth thoughts.

EDIT: Done with the fixing, it seriously changes the story. I really need to pay more attention to dates.  :D
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Feb 2017, 10:44 von The_Necromancer0 »
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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #205 am: 28. Feb 2017, 11:03 »
How could we ever spend time with wisdom during our apprehensive wait for the patch, if not by debating crucial lore matters?  ;)

I really like the idea, Necro, and I think the gates of the LOTR section should remain well open to anything that deals with similar on-topic subjects. That's why I decided to merge the topic with our beloved lore corner. On the facts presented and in regards of the eventualities which you have come up with, I most entirely agree with the kernel of your conclusions, as it seems to be a very reasonable of an explanation. I just wonder whether, taking advantage of a hiatus of Sauron's final operations, Galadriel and Elrond would be instead keen on leading their people to the westernmost shores of Middle-earth, to depart with the last grey ships.

Concerning Valinor, I also share the same opinion of Melkor. In the sense that Aman had indeed been previously separated from Arda, and I would thus infer that it would consequently be physically impossible for the Valar (as well as for any host) to put foot again on mortal soil. We could probably view this physical reasoning as a physical parallelism of the Ainur's will not to mingle themselves with the destiny of Middle-earth, lest additional grave wounds result for the World. And I would also add that, had they been capable of intervening, they would have nonetheless opted for non-intervention: if you think about it, Sauron's desire for the whole dominion of mortal lands is quite different from the ancient perspective of having Melkor (the Vala) rule over all those territories, if we also take into account that the latter was very likely to long for complete destruction of the Valar's primordial creation. A logic that therefore contemplated annihilation or vast-scale marring, whereas Sauron was maybe more interested in domination/tyranny, since he couldn't even dispose of his past master's devices, servants and powers. So, at the end of the day, I guess the Lords of the West would have eventually accepted the prospect of Sauron gaining control of Middle-earth; an enemy, by the way, whom they could have wiped out very easily.

Henceforth, as you can see, Melkor (dear attendee of this forum), there is something we agree on. This is something that ought to be celebrated  xD

Hopefully, I triggered a least a couple of you which should lead to an interesting debate, all under the watchful eye of the great moderator that lives on this forum, an elf-admin, of terrible power.


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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #206 am: 28. Feb 2017, 17:53 »
I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before). A couple of questions:
 - Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
 - What would Sauron do about any elves and dwarves living in the east of Middle Earth?
 - What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)? I'd imagine that most of Rohan would be burned down since they mainly have wooden buildings (from the film anyway) as well as Caras Galadhon. Isengard would be given the Mouth of Sauron. Would Sauron try to corrupt the rest (in a similar way to Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate) or would he try to destroy any trace of them?

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #207 am: 28. Feb 2017, 19:37 »
Zitat
- Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
I doubt, he'd have achieved anything. Radagast failed at his mission in his own way (basically stopped caring about the fate of Middle Earth and turned to animals or the wild), thus since even Gandalf the White is inferior to Sauron with the One, what match is Radagast to the power of Mordor?

Zitat
- What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)?
I'm not sure if this applies to everyone of those places, but why not expand your base of operation? ;) In general, Sauron turned out to be pretty practical, and these fortresses often control their general vicinity: Minas Tirith basically controls the mid-point of the Anduin (considering he has access to Minas Morgul, Osgiliath and Cair Andros), Dol Amroth controls the fiefdoms of Gondor as well as giving him total control over the lower-part of the Anduin (again considering he has Umbar) AS WELL as grating him another entry point into Gondor (besides Cair Andros & Osgiliath).
Erebor is like the only fortress in the north of Middle Earth as well as the best place for a slave fortress for all the Dwarves and Elves of the north. I guess, the ressources are pretty rich, since the Dwarves chose to build their main kingdom over there. This also basically answers the fate of the dwarves and elves of the north (at least of Mirkwood).
Helm's Deep he might actually demolish, since it rivals Isengard's position and Isengard is the best fortress to rule over Rohan and Dunland, also giving access to Eriador. On the other hand, the Hornburg is incredibly usefull for him, since he has direct control over the mountains and the people of Rohan living there. (Remember the battles at the fords of Isen, it was mainly Isengard's strategic location that granted Saruman victory there.)
Rivendell and Mithlond he'd probably destroy. Sauron can rule northern Eriador from Fornost, Carn Dûm, the Etten-??? (what's their name in english?). Also, both are very holy places, he has no use for, also considering, Eriador is pretty empty and I'm not even sure if at least Mithlond is a real fortress. Actually, Isengard might even be enough, but since evil spirits still exist in the north, why not reestablish Angmar? He then basically sandwiches Eriador between Dunland under Isengard's control and Angmar. Possibly add Fornost and Weathertop and the north is secured, once their resistance is crushed. (Which shouldn't be strong to begin with: Saruman's men are still occupying half of the Shire and the Dunedain are all wiped out, since Sauron won at the Black Gate.)

Actually, I'd like to talk about the Lord of the Nine. Would Sauron be able to resurrect him? I mean, his body is destroyed, and he is still originally a human. It's not a fallen Ainu like Sauron who can form another dark body when he has access to the One.
However, it's still the master ring, so he might still be able to revive him OR (which I find more probable) create a new one what he should definitely be able to do, since he has the Master Ring. Actually, and I know this is just speculation, but why not give the ring to some of his most glorious human servants like the Mouth of Sauron?
Since they are all crazy for power anyways, that could very well happen. And I believe there could be some candidates, remember, the character of e.g. Gothmog is very unknown in the books, I doubt he'd turn out to be an orc. (Probably either a Nazgûl or another evil man. What do the linguists know about the origins of this name?)
I mean, don't get me wrong: Sauron not having access to his most deadliest servant is immaterial to his victory! It should only slow him down, although considering I absolutely ADORE the concept of the Nazgûl (in my opinion Tolkiens only great villains!), I'd be eager to see the Witchking in action while Sauron has got the One! xD

Now, the funny thing is, as much as I'd like to write something, I can't think of anything... The point is, Sauron with the Ring (considering all the power he has already collected in the WotR) is so much stronger than any opposing force, it's basically Mordor steamrolling over everything!
There might be some brave resistance, but after that Mordor's shadow would wipe this memory and embrace Middle Earth in darkness and desperation, Sauron's central theme. I mean, it's hard to remember, how brave your king or whatever fought if he a) is dead, b) desecrated and c) you're living in slavery, so don't stand there reasoning and get back to work you lazy maggot! ;) Some elves might end up lucky and make it to the Grey Havens, but after they are gone, it's Sauron for breakfast, lunch and dinner and nobody will be able to break his reign. So in a way, there is nothing to say really: It's gonna be first a slaughter and than just cold, dark nothingness untill either Middle Earth is a spoiled wasteland or Sauron reaches the industrial age and starts launching nuclear rockets at Valinor^^ ;)

You know what, the last sentance was obviously a joke, but coming to think about it, it bears in interesting development:
Following the books, Mordor is the most modern faction in the WotR, having access to gunpowder / mines (since they blow up parts of the Rammas in the siege of MT), and having developt sort of an industry in Gorgoroth. This theme is mostly known for Isengard, because that's their movie element and for the sake of uniqueness, it can't be Mordor's theme to. Yet, in the books, Saruman's only achievement is him creating a mix between orcs and humans and giving it a fancy name, while most of his inventions are actually copied from Mordor / Sauron.
What makes this interesting to me, is obviously the question: How much would Sauron f*** up the mystic realm of Middle Earth using the spoiled part of fairly modern technology after achieving total victory? I mean, he has all tools to his disposal, and while not really needing them anymore, his greed and malice might make him use these devices just to collect more power for powers sake.
Seriously, considering the basic theme of Tolkien's good guys is restoring lost glory, the themes of evil differ quite a lot between Morgoth whose theme is corruption and spoiling of good works (Melkor has still a creative element for some parts) while Sauron's theme also reaches into the theme of advances in weaponry and surpassing his master. His works on trolls (Olog-Hai) as well as on the big uruks of Mordor show a lot of refinement -yet not in the creative sense of good (crafting beautiful objects mostly without an actual reason), but rather in the spirit of perfecting weapons and causing more death & destruction. On that note, Middle Earth might end up as a wasteland for all of Sauron's twisted inventions.

Zitat
Henceforth, as you can see, Melkor (dear attendee of this forum), there is something we agree on. This is something that ought to be celebrated  xD
Run! Everybody run! The end of the world is approaching! :D


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Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #208 am: 28. Feb 2017, 23:16 »
I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before). A couple of questions:
 - Could Radagast have made a big difference? I guess he could've slowed Sauron down but I doubt he would've lasted long.
 - What would Sauron do about any elves and dwarves living in the east of Middle Earth?
 - What would Sauron have done with the fortresses he took (Minas Tirith, Dol Amroth, Erebor, Helm's Deep, Rivendell, Mithlond)? I'd imagine that most of Rohan would be burned down since they mainly have wooden buildings (from the film anyway) as well as Caras Galadhon. Isengard would be given the Mouth of Sauron. Would Sauron try to corrupt the rest (in a similar way to Minas Ithil, Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate) or would he try to destroy any trace of them?

1. I doubt Radagast could have posed a very worrying threat to Sauron. The Istar had already forgotten the purpose of his mission when the War of the Ring broke out. We can therefore assume he would have had nearly all his powers severely diminished by that time (the resurgence of Sauron).

2. Men often fell prey of his devices and deceits, resulting in them being easily enslaved and ultimately tamed. On the other hand, I don't think the Dark Lord would reserve the same 'courteous' treatment to Elves and Dwarves, given the endurance of these races against magic and the Evil in general. I would thus say that he would be likely to opt for a complete extermination of such people (and it sounds really terrible!).

3. That's a really interesting topic: would Sauron have decided to lay waste to anything made by his opponents, or would he have instead twisted those creations and corrupted their inner essence? Just to connect with the previous point about his cruelty towards Elves and Dwarves, I think he would have annihilated all of their memories, whereas the mighty craftsmanship of Men would have been the sole to serve the new master in a new (marred) fashion: it's an aspect that symbolises the will of Sauron to rule over all Men, as their only king (the title he was known as in the Second Age, when this very boastful act of his caused the wrath of the last king of Númenor).

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #209 am: 2. Mär 2017, 12:20 »
About Sauron and the conquered fortress:
In my opinion, he would most likely destroy everything elf related: Grey Havens, Rivendell, Lothlorien, ect... However, Sauron may be evil but he is not dumb (apart from that whole not having a door on Mount Doom), he would use the mines of the Dwarves to dig for precious materials which would have allowed him to keep his war machine going. He might have also moved the library of Rivendell for personal use although I think this one is less likely.

DieWalkure is probably right, it is more likely that the elves would make their way for the Grey Havens hastily as opposed to sending their people into a hopeless war. I wonder if the elves of Lorien would be able to make their way there safely or if the trip would be a constant battle against all foul things that have felt Sauron's power in addition with the Mordor host tailing them closely.

Looking back at all the debate that's been going on, it has now become much clearer to me why they feared him finding the One Ring. The war was already gong pretty badly for the Free People but it seems regaining the one would be catastrophic, making the rest of the war completely one side with very little challenge. Just like Melkor said, basically Mordor steamrolling everything.

I'd be interesting to know whether or not once the war is over whether or not Sauron would have followed a path similar to this world's technological advancements. Eventually discovering things like electricity, nuclear power, ...
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I think Necro has a good idea of what would happen (it's almost as if he's planned this conquest before).
I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired th... I mean what, what now?
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