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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Fredius:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  3. Jan 2017, 17:51 ---The moment they decided to deal with Angmar in that way, they did so because the particular context of the faction permitted them to do so; in that sense, they were also forced to rely on fictional material, and I don't absolutely deem this fact negative (taking into account those precise boundaries). Their choice was thus completely justified. Yet factions like Mordor, Gondor or Lothlórien are a very different case: I don't think there is a possible ground to make reasonable comparisons with Angmar then. Angmar's premises can't be applied to Lórien. It's plainly comprehensible.

--- Ende Zitat ---

It's exactly like I said, adding fictional material is not negative, however I disagree that it is justified for the reasonings you gave. First of all, the faction Lothlorien is not "Lothlorien", it's a combination of different factions, with Lothlorien being the main faction. Adding Anduin to it won't change that, as a matter of fact the Anduin already has the Beornings, I'm just expanding that subfaction. Because of those reasons Lothlorien does not belong to the same list as Mordor and Gondor, since those 2 factions' regions and units belong to them. Dol Guldur, Morgul and Cirith Ungol are part of Mordor, the fiefdoms of Gondor are part of Gondor, while Mirkwood, Beornings or the Ents are not part of the Kingdom of Lothlorien. This is the difference I'm trying to tell you all this time [ugly]!


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  3. Jan 2017, 17:51 ---Regarding the cinematographic atmosphere that the game should preserve, your solution is a quite non-sequitur statement, as its logical deductions aren't very much coherent, in my personal view. The cinematographic issue is an issue because we can't dispose of cinematographic transpositions from LOTR (or from the Hobbit) of those characters in the first place. They're not present in the films. So, thinking to solve the dilemma via opting for a resemblance to the films' portrait doesn't resolve it indeed, because those or other choices would nonetheless be fictional anyway; a person's interpretation based on a person's own thoughts. In light of these considerations, I think this issue just can't be dealt with properly, if not opting for the 'Angmar-way'.
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And I don't see why, design-wise, it's a bad thing to add elements that are not directly from the movie, but still are influenced by it. A lot of units in the mod are design wise based on fiction, but still they keep the movie influences in it. Even the recent Guards of Orthanc concept art is fully fictional, and nobody seems to mind that, including you chief :P. However, it does keep certain movie elements in it, for example the helmet that looks like that of Gondor, or the spear that resembles the Tower of Orthanc. If I did the same thing with the Men of Anduin (which I was planning to do), would you still disagree with that?


--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  3. Jan 2017, 17:51 ---Nevertheless, since I'm always keen on reading new proposals, I'm really looking forward to that. Good luck with it  :)

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Thanks man. Look I know your love for Lothlorien very well, and I know you want to keep it as much of an Elven faction of beauty as possible, and because of that I will try to find a way in my proposal to not destroy the current faction as it is now, but just enrich it a little bit :).

Fredius:
To celebrate the return of the forums I've found something creepy and interesting in the Middle-Earth universe, muhahaha!!

Remember when Gandalf said that "there are older and fouler things in the deep places of the world"? He is not only referring to the Balrog, but creatures without a name or race assigned to them: Nameless Things. According to Gandalf, these things are even older than Sauron himself, and have been digging the tunnels of the Misty Mountains far before the Dwarves or the Balrog did.


--- Zitat ---Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day.
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- Gandalf

--- Zitat ---Some of these caves, too, go back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still in odd corners, slinking and nosing about.
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- The Hobbit
Sadly, nobody knows how they look like, and how they even came to the world. They are a mystery comparable to Ungoliant, whose origins is unknown as well. So I hope you can still sleep after reading this ghehehe [ugly]....

Source:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nameless_Things
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Nameless_Things

Walküre:
1. Your coming to these shores is quite late, servant of Sauron and Morgoth  :D

2. It's true that Ungoliant's history is not explained well in the annals of Arda, but, as far as I always grasped, the customary interpretation of the lore tells us that she's a Maia. The fact that she was capable of conjuring such dreadful and anti-light/matter-like powers depends on very ghoulish circumstances...  :(

Fredius:
Hmm never saw that, but hey, a wizard is never late, nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to!  This rule applies to Black Numenorean wizards as well xD.

Ah well, the Nameless Things are theorised to be Maia as well, but I want the lore on these creatures to be like the history of how man learnt to milk a cow; dark and mysterious.

Also it seems that WETA made a concept art for them in the Two Towers artbook. I will try to search for it and post it here if I have any results.

Walküre:

--- Zitat ---Your coming to us is as the footsteps of doom. You bring great evil here[...]
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It's not that I don't like obscure tales from unknown times (I love them!), but I do believe that everything should be eventually comprehensible, at a minimal extent, at least. Therefore, whether it be Tolkien himself or customary interpretations deducted from speculations (a sort of common law), one ought always be able to recognise certain common aspects of the whole mythological corpus of the Professor: that is, recurrent themes or properties that help people understand things, some very clear boundaries (namely, the fact that only the Ainur and the Elves may live eternally in Aman) and main characteristics which tie everything together. So, what prima facie seems to be illogical and in opposition to prior events may be clarified (not wholly) by those said common traits. It's de facto the Zeitgeist of Arda.

For example, I read that some regard Ungoliant as an unknown creature (superior even to the Ainur) that had been dwelling in Arda before the very arrival of the Angels, or that she can be considered as the personification of the Void itself (something that would place her very close to Ilúvatar or even turn her in a sort of anti-God). That's why, albeit loving elements that are surrounded in an aura of pure mystery, it's also quite imperative that these elements be respectful of the most basic foundations/rules of Arda. But I agree with you, since mystery does play an important part too; and Tolkien sometimes contradicting himself just conveys this sense even more. Yet I find too excessive cases (as that interpretation of Ungoliant) very disruptive too.

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