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Autor Thema: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates  (Gelesen 102851 mal)

OakenShield224

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #210 am: 2. Mär 2017, 18:25 »
Would the elves of Lorien or Mirkwood even be able to go to the Undying Lands or would it just be the last Noldor who'd leave?

There are a couple of other factors that may hasten or slow down Sauron's victory.
Firstly, there are the dragons of the Withered Heath. They may not have been as powerful as Smaug but they could've still done massive damage (especially if Sauron tempted them with dwarven realms).

There is also Glorfindel. In the First Age , he was able to fight off a balrog and hold off Morgoth's armies long enough for Gondolin's survivors to escape. In the Third age, he frightened the Witch King just by being there and then sent the Nazgul fleeing into Elrond's flood. How much damage do you think he could've done to Sauron's forces? Would he have sacrificed himself to let the others escape Middle Earth?

Concerning Sauron's rule over Middle Earth:
How do you think he would've treated the Evil Men that fought for him? In the First Age, Morgoth just mistreated any Easterlings who followed him. Do you think Sauron would've done the same?

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #211 am: 2. Mär 2017, 19:42 »
Zitat
There is also Glorfindel. In the First Age , he was able to fight off a balrog and hold off Morgoth's armies long enough for Gondolin's survivors to escape. In the Third age, he frightened the Witch King just by being there and then sent the Nazgul fleeing into Elrond's flood. How much damage do you think he could've done to Sauron's forces? Would he have sacrificed himself to let the others escape Middle Earth?
Well, that is taken a lot out of context: First of all, eventhough it isn't impossible, be don't know for certain if Glorfindel = Glorfindel. That obviously only affects him dealing with a balrog, but still -that effects him dealing with a balrog. xD And in my version of the story (The Book of Lost Tales), he did only fight the balrog not him and Angband's forces. That's a difference.
Him dealing with the Nazgûl is another topic. Not to take anything away from Glorfindel, but the Witchking had already lost the battle, the war and his realm. He did eventually ran off, but you can hardly ignore the surroundings. It wasn't him running away too frightened to fight, but him choosing to leave (after his work was done aka Arnor destroyed). Also, didn't he vanish laughing? I'm almost certain, he did.
Next, at the fords of Bruinen, the Witchking was in the middle of the fords when the flood came, so he basically frightened the horses. BTW, supported by Aragorn & the hobbits using torches! Thus, he is clearly a damn-powerfull elven lord (who did chase some Nazgûl away by himself earlier at the bridge (offscreen)), but I think you make him stronger than he is.
Also, when talking about the Nine, it's important to grasp the concept of how much of their strength is revealed. That's especially important for their leader; he wasn't yet allowed to show his true power to the West. (No idea, why, btw. I mean, he was chasing the One Ring! :D)

Concerning the dragons: Yes, Sauron would eventually try to bind them to his will, as Morgoth did or at least control them using their greed. I guess, that would take a while since they live very far away. Gondor, Rohan and the Erebor would have fallen by then, I'd guess, so essentially they'd end up as overkill.

Zitat
How do you think he would've treated the Evil Men that fought for him? In the First Age, Morgoth just mistreated any Easterlings who followed him. Do you think Sauron would've done the same?
I think, Sauron's relation to the easterlings is quite different from Morgoth's. The latter used them exclusively as a tool to win the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and then had no use for them anymore. Giving them nothing for it was just him being the devil of Arda.
Meanwhile, Sauron seems to enjoy, being their leader and thus has a much deeper relation to them and men in general. Remember, they glorified him as a god. Thus, I expect Sauron to further use them as his battle thralls, ultimately being not particularly evil towards them. (Apart from the general mess his unbroken rule would have caused in Middle Earth over time.) But he was certainly not at all that focussed on his own creations as Morgoth, namely because Sauron did nearly exclusively refine them and not create them from scratch (or at least from... volunteers [ugly]).

Zitat
I'd be interesting to know whether or not once the war is over whether or not Sauron would have followed a path similar to this world's technological advancements. Eventually discovering things like electricity, nuclear power, ...
I think, I just realized something... Something very grave... Considering Tolkien plans his world to eventually become ours... Since we have all of this, I'm afraid but Sauron won as you can clearly deduce from our surroundings. Well... I guess, you're our true leader now, Necro. :P


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: "Ettenmoors". How could I forget that?!

OakenShield224

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #212 am: 2. Mär 2017, 22:03 »
Hmm, I guess I did overestimate Glorfindel. Still, anyone who could scare the Nazgul would probably be a small help in a total invasion.
Zitat
Also, when talking about the Nine, it's important to grasp the concept of how much of their strength is revealed. That's especially important for their leader; he wasn't yet allowed to show his true power to the West. (No idea, why, btw. I mean, he was chasing the One Ring! )
This is interesting now I think about it. Sauron wanted the Nazgul to be secretive to hid their true purpose and avoid outside intervention. However, what would have happened if the Nazgul had been able to show their true power when searching for the One Ring? I'd imagine that there would be a much bigger struggle in the North with the Dunedain and any elves that were sent from Rivendell. Maybe the Nazgul would've rallied the orcs of the Misty Mountains, the Barrow Wights and any other evil creatures they could find. It would've been interesting to see this although I doubt it would've ever happened.

Walküre

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #213 am: 3. Mär 2017, 18:13 »
As an additional insight, since I read that Necro wondered whether the Dagor Dagorath itself would eventually take place at the end of time, the Silmarillion and other sources (of which I have knowledge only thanks to various summaries I found here and there) tell us precisely that the World shall ultimately end, one way or the other. Although details and technicalities are not provided, we know that this apocalyptic fate is an inexorable of a conclusion; but it would be wrong to view that as the usual conflagration scenario, because it's also a tale of rebirth and catharsis. Catharsis itself, as a name, conveys the core of this event's importance in a perfect way: the name derives from Ancient Greek and indicates a process of purification, which is very likely to have been accomplished via a daunting and suffered path of agony.

In our context, the battle of the battles is to occur and throw into the greatest chaos the mightiest of both sides. Albeit the aftermath, the Good shall prevail. Nevertheless, Arda will be broken and the Silmarils finally retrieved. The Two Trees shall be given new life and, once the Pelóri are levelled, shall bring light to every land of the firmament. Therefore, it's legitimately presumable that Sauron will never gain control of Middle-earth in perpetuity, or for a great amount of time in which he might succeed in developing such 'achievements'. That's why it would be quite counterproductive and meaningless if the Valar opted to wage war against him; a kind of waste of time (even with the sincerest intentions). Manwë and Varda already know how things are to unfold themselves, in the latest hour. I guess we could also infer that, the more the fate of the World worsens, the quicker the final catharsis approaches.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Melkor shall be obliterated once and for all in the conflict. This is something I needed to remind you of. Whether it be the Free People triumphing or Sauron's tyranny establishing itself, the Good will eventually prevail. I'm absolutely aware of the one-sided essence of Arda's tale, but that's quite the ordinary procedure in Tolkien's vision  :P

Chrishedges

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #214 am: 18. Mär 2017, 16:09 »
Hey all, I'm just wondering about what people opinions are on when the war of the ring officially started, would you say when frodo left rivendell or perhaps the battle of helms deep, maybe even when sauron first sent the nazgul after the ring? Let me know what you guys think :)
It's a dangerous thing walking out of your front door frodo, you never know where the road may take you.

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #215 am: 18. Mär 2017, 17:12 »
Aren't there precise indications of the exact course of the War of the Ring, provided by the canonical sources? Anyway, yours is a very interesting question  :)

Well, one could wonder whether the general prospect of a total war for the One Ring was envisaged by Sauron long time before, when he took possession of and infested the ruined Dol Guldur, for example. But in a strict factual perspective, I guess a lot depends on the role you want Mordor to be given: if, in fact, you deem the whole war as the conflict and military manoeuvres of Sauron's own forces against the Free People, then it could be legitimate to infer that the War of the Ring started as soon as the implacable military machine of Mordor started to wage pervasive operations (after Isengard was vanquished). Otherwise, were you to consider the general strife of the Good against any single pawn of the Evil, I would say that the war broke out when Sauron was informed that the One Ring had been brought to the Shire.

Chrishedges

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #216 am: 19. Mär 2017, 02:00 »
Yeah that's exactly where I'm coming from there are so many points at which you can say the war of the ring began but to define one moment as the start I think is impossible I'd like to add to the list of possible starts being when the white counsel banished sauron from dol guldur as that would be the first direct conflict with sauron in the third age (correct me if I'm wrong) as that was imo the start of the war between mordor and the free peoples in the third age and whether we define the whole war as the war of the ring or just when the ring was revealed to sauron, I know in the books the period between the events of the hobbit and Lotr is called the watchful peace but it was hardly peaceful in the east was it?
It's a dangerous thing walking out of your front door frodo, you never know where the road may take you.

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #217 am: 19. Mär 2017, 11:50 »
You're right. The banishment of Sauron was the first counter-attack of the Free People, even though only the Wise were involved and the deed itself didn't lead to meaningful results, albeit forcing him to unveil his schemes and flee to Mordor (and we know that his 'retreat' was a move he had been planning for long time).

The East of Middle-earth has always been a quite turbulent of a scenario, it's true. I don't know if all the skirmishes that took place between Gondor and the Evil Men were a design of Sauron himself (I think they acted in a quite loose context), but they certainly didn't contribute to render the whole environment in the South more pacific. Moreover, the Watchful Peace is actually a four-century period that started after Gandalf entered Dol Guldur for the first time; that was almost a millennium before the events of LOTR. This very period had already ended with the second return of Sauron in that ruined fortress (about 500 years before the quest of Thorin and his company).

OakenShield224

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #218 am: 19. Mär 2017, 12:37 »
I'm not really sure where else to put this, but I guess the current discussions on Sauron in the Lore Corner would be a good start. These articles have a pretty good description of Sauron's thoughts and strategies during the Second and Third Ages. Hopefully, they will be interesting for others to read.

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/11/12/the-sauron-strategies-footsteps-into-failure/

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2012/11/19/the-sauron-strategies-one-war-to-win-them-all-except/

Chrishedges

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #219 am: 19. Mär 2017, 20:25 »
Thank you for clearing up the watchful peace for me I didn't quite get the dates I didn't realise Gandalf visited before was that the time he found thrain in the dungeon and got the map and key for erebor? Or did he visit a few times?
It's a dangerous thing walking out of your front door frodo, you never know where the road may take you.

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #220 am: 19. Mär 2017, 22:33 »
Yes, Gandalf does visit Dol Guldur in 2850 T.A., where he had confirmation that Sauron was indeed returned and where he was given the key of the Lonely Mountain. But Gandalf had already visited that ruined fortress, as I wrote; it was in 2063 T.A. Sauron had started gathering shadows in Mirkwood since 1000 T.A. (as I recall) and Gandalf had been sent there for an inquiry about such suspicious unrest along those lands. Sauron didn't have the power to confront the Istar though, and so he fled to the East to avoid having his true identity unveiled.

Chrishedges

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #221 am: 20. Mär 2017, 02:51 »
Ahh thank you for clarifying:), certainly can't beat a good discussion on lotr  xD
It's a dangerous thing walking out of your front door frodo, you never know where the road may take you.

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #222 am: 20. Mär 2017, 14:39 »
You're welcome  :)

It's then consequential that the information provided by AUJ is flawed and incorrect, even if that choice was legitimately due to adaptation needs. Elrond speaking about the period of watchful peace they had been living until that moment (the arrival of Thorin in the film) thus contradicts the lore. As I wrote, though, the generalities of the Hobbit trilogy's plot are well acceptable in those particular circumstances.

OakenShield224

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #223 am: 8. Okt 2017, 18:06 »
I feel like I've just realised something about the LOTR books/films.

Sauron lost the ring when Isildur cut his finger off. Isildur claimed the ring. He later died and fell into water where his body was never found.
Frodo lost the ring when Gollum bit his finger off. Gollum claimed the ring. He later died and fell into fire where his body was destroyed.
In both cases, the original owner had their finger severed while the new owner died in someway due to the ring (Gollum was too busy celebrating that he had it, while the Ring left Isildur allowing him to be shot).

Another connection was that Isildur went into the river (water) in his death and was never seen again. Boromir's funeral involved him being cast into the river on a boat and he was never seen again (except in a dream by Faramir). Frodo and Bilbo left the lands of Mortals by crossing the sea (water) and were never seen by mortals again. Galadriel (the elf who desired the ring the most) is known for having Nenya, the Ring of Water.

What do you think about the existence of these links between the ring bearers and those who desired the ring?

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Re: Lore Corner - Questions and Debates
« Antwort #224 am: 9. Okt 2017, 02:33 »
What to say, Tolkien's writings are the realm of references and linkages of the most diverse nature! Think about how Galadriel ends up mirroring the grand deeds of Lúthien in the First Age, destroying and cleansing what had thitherto been a stronghold in Sauron's government. Or the numerous connections of Elrond's legendary ancestry: with the union of Arwen and Aragorn, the bloodline of the Two Twins is finally reunited (Elrond's kin and the one of Elros, from whom the lore of the Five-pointed Island had beginning). Set aside what could seem to be a sort of incest, albeit the two lines of descent being divided by millennia and by many events which had in the meantime befallen, it's really a very intricate of a scheme to conceive. Fact reinforced by Arwen and Aragorn treading the exact same path of Beren and Lúthien: the love between the immortal and mortal races. Beside that, one would find a plethora of other similar cases. You need only dig and delve into the broad lore...

Natural Elements, from their part, are ever-pivotal themes to portray. This happens in most fantasy and mythical tales of the old literature, from which Tolkien has taken inspiration. Water, in particular, serves different purposes: it is seldom tied to the Evil or to its devices (as Galadriel would say), whereas it is often related to purity and cleanliness. Under a more neutral perspective, water has simply a central part in any happening of Middle-earth. Rivers are given prominence in the narration and the sea made the fortunes of realms as Gondor or the empire of Númenor itself. The sundering seas divide also continental lands (domain of sad death for mortals and grief) from the shires in which naught decays and all ever-green stays. Sea itself was of fundamental interest in the Elder Times and in the Second Age as well; in the former was symbol of nostalgia for the West and grievous exile, and in the latter oceans became the medium via which Númenor could propagate its might.

The smartest reference to elements I have in mind is the ultimate fate of the Three Jewels. One fell in the fires of the earth (Earth), the other was thrown in the broad sea (Water) and the last found in the Mariner the noblest keeper, voyaging eternally throughout the infinite vastness of Arda's skies (Air) and enlightening the halls of Eä as a star of hope.