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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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OakenShield224:
Would the elves of Lorien or Mirkwood even be able to go to the Undying Lands or would it just be the last Noldor who'd leave?

There are a couple of other factors that may hasten or slow down Sauron's victory.
Firstly, there are the dragons of the Withered Heath. They may not have been as powerful as Smaug but they could've still done massive damage (especially if Sauron tempted them with dwarven realms).

There is also Glorfindel. In the First Age , he was able to fight off a balrog and hold off Morgoth's armies long enough for Gondolin's survivors to escape. In the Third age, he frightened the Witch King just by being there and then sent the Nazgul fleeing into Elrond's flood. How much damage do you think he could've done to Sauron's forces? Would he have sacrificed himself to let the others escape Middle Earth?

Concerning Sauron's rule over Middle Earth:
How do you think he would've treated the Evil Men that fought for him? In the First Age, Morgoth just mistreated any Easterlings who followed him. Do you think Sauron would've done the same?

Melkor Bauglir:

--- Zitat ---There is also Glorfindel. In the First Age , he was able to fight off a balrog and hold off Morgoth's armies long enough for Gondolin's survivors to escape. In the Third age, he frightened the Witch King just by being there and then sent the Nazgul fleeing into Elrond's flood. How much damage do you think he could've done to Sauron's forces? Would he have sacrificed himself to let the others escape Middle Earth?
--- Ende Zitat ---
Well, that is taken a lot out of context: First of all, eventhough it isn't impossible, be don't know for certain if Glorfindel = Glorfindel. That obviously only affects him dealing with a balrog, but still -that effects him dealing with a balrog. xD And in my version of the story (The Book of Lost Tales), he did only fight the balrog not him and Angband's forces. That's a difference.
Him dealing with the Nazgûl is another topic. Not to take anything away from Glorfindel, but the Witchking had already lost the battle, the war and his realm. He did eventually ran off, but you can hardly ignore the surroundings. It wasn't him running away too frightened to fight, but him choosing to leave (after his work was done aka Arnor destroyed). Also, didn't he vanish laughing? I'm almost certain, he did.
Next, at the fords of Bruinen, the Witchking was in the middle of the fords when the flood came, so he basically frightened the horses. BTW, supported by Aragorn & the hobbits using torches! Thus, he is clearly a damn-powerfull elven lord (who did chase some Nazgûl away by himself earlier at the bridge (offscreen)), but I think you make him stronger than he is.
Also, when talking about the Nine, it's important to grasp the concept of how much of their strength is revealed. That's especially important for their leader; he wasn't yet allowed to show his true power to the West. (No idea, why, btw. I mean, he was chasing the One Ring! :D)

Concerning the dragons: Yes, Sauron would eventually try to bind them to his will, as Morgoth did or at least control them using their greed. I guess, that would take a while since they live very far away. Gondor, Rohan and the Erebor would have fallen by then, I'd guess, so essentially they'd end up as overkill.


--- Zitat ---How do you think he would've treated the Evil Men that fought for him? In the First Age, Morgoth just mistreated any Easterlings who followed him. Do you think Sauron would've done the same?
--- Ende Zitat ---
I think, Sauron's relation to the easterlings is quite different from Morgoth's. The latter used them exclusively as a tool to win the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and then had no use for them anymore. Giving them nothing for it was just him being the devil of Arda.
Meanwhile, Sauron seems to enjoy, being their leader and thus has a much deeper relation to them and men in general. Remember, they glorified him as a god. Thus, I expect Sauron to further use them as his battle thralls, ultimately being not particularly evil towards them. (Apart from the general mess his unbroken rule would have caused in Middle Earth over time.) But he was certainly not at all that focussed on his own creations as Morgoth, namely because Sauron did nearly exclusively refine them and not create them from scratch (or at least from... volunteers [ugly]).


--- Zitat ---I'd be interesting to know whether or not once the war is over whether or not Sauron would have followed a path similar to this world's technological advancements. Eventually discovering things like electricity, nuclear power, ...
--- Ende Zitat ---
I think, I just realized something... Something very grave... Considering Tolkien plans his world to eventually become ours... Since we have all of this, I'm afraid but Sauron won as you can clearly deduce from our surroundings. Well... I guess, you're our true leader now, Necro. :P


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: "Ettenmoors". How could I forget that?!

OakenShield224:
Hmm, I guess I did overestimate Glorfindel. Still, anyone who could scare the Nazgul would probably be a small help in a total invasion.

--- Zitat ---Also, when talking about the Nine, it's important to grasp the concept of how much of their strength is revealed. That's especially important for their leader; he wasn't yet allowed to show his true power to the West. (No idea, why, btw. I mean, he was chasing the One Ring! )
--- Ende Zitat ---
This is interesting now I think about it. Sauron wanted the Nazgul to be secretive to hid their true purpose and avoid outside intervention. However, what would have happened if the Nazgul had been able to show their true power when searching for the One Ring? I'd imagine that there would be a much bigger struggle in the North with the Dunedain and any elves that were sent from Rivendell. Maybe the Nazgul would've rallied the orcs of the Misty Mountains, the Barrow Wights and any other evil creatures they could find. It would've been interesting to see this although I doubt it would've ever happened.

Walküre:
As an additional insight, since I read that Necro wondered whether the Dagor Dagorath itself would eventually take place at the end of time, the Silmarillion and other sources (of which I have knowledge only thanks to various summaries I found here and there) tell us precisely that the World shall ultimately end, one way or the other. Although details and technicalities are not provided, we know that this apocalyptic fate is an inexorable of a conclusion; but it would be wrong to view that as the usual conflagration scenario, because it's also a tale of rebirth and catharsis. Catharsis itself, as a name, conveys the core of this event's importance in a perfect way: the name derives from Ancient Greek and indicates a process of purification, which is very likely to have been accomplished via a daunting and suffered path of agony.

In our context, the battle of the battles is to occur and throw into the greatest chaos the mightiest of both sides. Albeit the aftermath, the Good shall prevail. Nevertheless, Arda will be broken and the Silmarils finally retrieved. The Two Trees shall be given new life and, once the Pelóri are levelled, shall bring light to every land of the firmament. Therefore, it's legitimately presumable that Sauron will never gain control of Middle-earth in perpetuity, or for a great amount of time in which he might succeed in developing such 'achievements'. That's why it would be quite counterproductive and meaningless if the Valar opted to wage war against him; a kind of waste of time (even with the sincerest intentions). Manwë and Varda already know how things are to unfold themselves, in the latest hour. I guess we could also infer that, the more the fate of the World worsens, the quicker the final catharsis approaches.

Oh, I forgot to mention, Melkor shall be obliterated once and for all in the conflict. This is something I needed to remind you of. Whether it be the Free People triumphing or Sauron's tyranny establishing itself, the Good will eventually prevail. I'm absolutely aware of the one-sided essence of Arda's tale, but that's quite the ordinary procedure in Tolkien's vision  :P

Chrishedges:
Hey all, I'm just wondering about what people opinions are on when the war of the ring officially started, would you say when frodo left rivendell or perhaps the battle of helms deep, maybe even when sauron first sent the nazgul after the ring? Let me know what you guys think :)

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