Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

[Adamin]

My question is - what does this mean? I know it means that their spirit consumes their body and it becomes invisible.

You're right with the first part as far as I know, but I can't remember anything about the second part. Elves cannot become invisible I think (without having any specific quote for that right now ).

Their creative Spirit does consume their body over time, but more in a metaphysical way. They grow tired, weary, unmotivated. I think it's kinda like staying too long at a party. There comes a time (usually around 3 am), where you just want to go home.

Tolkien actually had a physical fading in one of his early concepts. Back then the Elves literally faded in stature, and became the little fairy-like Elves like in Shakespeares Midsummernights Dream, or Santa Clauses Workshop. Thankfully Tolkien changed that later on.


Of course there's also an extreme Elf like Fëanor, always the exception to the rule:

[Fëanor] died; but he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left the halls of Mandos.

The Silmarillion: Chapter 13 - Of the Return of the Noldor

[ThorinsNemesis]

^^So they are still visible to everyone as normal after they fade?

[Walküre]

^^So they are still visible to everyone as normal after they fade?

I was never really convinced by the idea of Elves slowly fading into harmless and mourning spirits, similar to the fate of Sauron after the destruction of the One Ring.
As Adamin stated, their immortal soul consumes them more in a 'psychological' point of view, since their Immortality (very long lifespan deeply tied to the life and condition of the World itself) becomes antithetical to the ineluctable corruption and marring of Arda, started long before the Third Age.

So, the Elves naturally feel, after a long permanence in Middle Earth (especially in the Third Age), the dire and instinctive need to sail to the West and pass beyond the Sea, to truly live an immortal Life in immortal Lands, according to their own very Nature 

But, if some Elves still decide to remain in the World due to their pure love of it (something that refers mainly to the Teleri and the Avari), I definitely believe (according to my personal interpretation) that their bodies eventually decade and get old like the ones of the other Human beings.
I don't really like the idea of 'Elven Ghosts' wandering around the regions of the World in the Fourth and later ages 

[Adamin]

^^So they are still visible to everyone as normal after they fade?

I'd say so, yes.

I also can't remember reading of an Elf, that lost its body, yet still was alive. Usually you have to die in order to seperate your soul from your body.
(although there's the Wraith thing of course, which is kindof an inbetween thing... Wow, that really is a complicated issue. )

I was never really convinced by the idea of Elves slowly fading into harmless and mourning spirits, similar to the fate of Sauron after the destruction of the One Ring.

I never heard of that before. Is there really some source that describes something like that?

[ThorinsNemesis]

So maybe the Elves who stayed in Middle-earth were still completely visible, still immortal beings, but felt a strong need to depart to Valinor?
In my theory Thranduil remained in Middle-earth to rule his kingdom and faded. And Tauriel, she went east to the foothills of the Orocarni Mountains and settled in with the Avari/Dark Elves near the coast of the East ocean; she faded too. Well, Thranduil and Tauriel remained in Middle-earth at least in my headcanon  .

[Walküre]

I never heard of that before. Is there really some source that describes something like that?

It's something I read once on Tolkien Gateway, the last paragraph of the 'Decline of the Elves', extrapolated from a passage of the 'Morgoth's Ring', as showed in the second reference at the bottom of the page.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elves

But, as I have already said, it's not really something that convinces me very much, and, probably, this trait might be a later addition, as for what concerns many other themes.

The Elves, just like the Humans, are necessarily bound to their physical body, which, together with their spiritual part (soul), forms their Essence and capability of living/existing.
One half can't exist alone without the other (Fëa and Hröa) 
Only the Ainur, among all the sentient beings, could exist only with their spiritual component, as they were created in the Timeless Halls without a physical appearance, and they incarnated themselves later in the physical World; even though, they too suffer serious consequences if the lose their body, like Sauron throughout the events of Arda.

What stated in that passage implies, I guess, the possibility of some Elves to exist as invisible spirits in the World, lingering until the End of Time like the now harmless Sauron.
I think, instead, that every Elf remained in Middle Earth has to necessarily die at a certain point, and, given that their soul can't exist alone, wait as a spirit in the Halls of Mandos for its judgement.
The Wraith condition is something really rare, I would say, as a sort of exception in the Tolkien Universe (along with many other exceptions), that involves a 'cursed' and 'degenerate' element in it, as for example the condition of the Nazgûl, or the one of the Oathbreakers; or, as stated above, exceptional reasons, like the Nature and abilities of the Ainur of never really dying once and for all, but always existing somehow (even in a weaker or harmless state).

[ThorinsNemesis]

I personally don't think the fading Elves in Middle-earth would die, I think they remained immortal, but maybe hid themselves very well, and most of them lived in cave kingdoms; at least the Silvan elves and the Avari lived mostly in cave realms, so maybe we can assume the remaining Avari and Silvan Elves lived on in their underground dwellings, but just managed to make the entrances difficult to find?

[Adamin]

It's something I read once on Tolkien Gateway, the last paragraph of the 'Decline of the Elves', extrapolated from a passage of the 'Morgoth's Ring', as showed in the second reference at the bottom of the page.

Now that is interesting.
I suppose you can't really say then, if it is canon or not, since Morgoth's Ring (as the whole History of Middle-earth Series) consists of early manuscripts and development notes from Prof. Tolkien. Strictly speaking none of this made it into the published, finished Versions of the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion, and I guess Tolkien had good reasons for that.

But I looked up the quote that the Invisible Elves are based on anyway. It's quite fascinating.

For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also. 
Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. 
This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.

Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion - Laws and Customs Among the Eldar

This Passage does seem unfinished to me. First it speaks of a 'psychological' change. Stress (weight of the years) through the experience of change (change in desire and thought) on the Spirit manifests itself in a change of behavior (impulses and moods of the body).
But then it does mention the literal consuming of the body. So it kindof talks about two different things and does not combine the two. My guess is the Professor would have refined and rewritten this coherently, if he would have wanted to add it into the Silmarillion.

Then again it also states the becoming of invisible spirits as an external information. "And they say that all the Eldalie will have become spirits". So it is not told as a fact from the author, but rather something like a legend, an assumption. It does not necessarily has to be exactly like this.

I do like the first two sentences though, were it says that the life of the Elves is like the life of the world, aging indeed but very slowly. So watching an Elf grow old is kindof like watching a mountain, or an ocean grow old. They do change, grow, reform, but so slowly that a single human does not perceive any change.
Pretty cool concept. ^^


So yeah, who is to say what happens to the elves that stay? No one knows! And that in itself is somewhat beautiful. ^^

[ThorinsNemesis]

^^Well then, I guess in this case we can only speculate on what happened to the Avari and Silvan Elves who remained in Middle-earth  .
Talking about Silvan Elves, is it written somewhere in the books if Thranduil went to Valinor or stayed to rule his kingdom? My theory is that he stayed in Middle-earth, but does the lore contradict this?

[LordDainIronfoot]

I think it is not clearly stated if he left or stayed! :-)

[Walküre]

Now that is interesting.
I suppose you can't really say then, if it is canon or not, since Morgoth's Ring (as the whole History of Middle-earth Series) consists of early manuscripts and development notes from Prof. Tolkien. Strictly speaking none of this made it into the published, finished Versions of the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion, and I guess Tolkien had good reasons for that.

Yes, I had kind of imagined it myself, but, apparently, this interpretation is relatively widespread as the actual lore, as I had also the opportunity to see in other Tolkien-related pages.
That's why I personally always prefer the 'original' (published) and earlier material from the Silmarillion (that naturally involves, consequently, other fundamental Arda matters), which might seem to be a bit 'rough' or incomplete, but it's surely my guide across all the founding aspects of the Legendarium 
For example, I surely appreciate more Galadriel passing the deadly Grinding Ice with her brothers and relatives of the Noldorin Royal Family (and meeting Celeborn in Doriath), rather than her reaching later Middle Earth with Celeborn (previously known in Alqualondë) with a Telerin ship (the version followed by LOTR) 

So yeah, who is to say what happens to the elves that stay? No one knows! And that in itself is somewhat beautiful. ^^

Yes, it really gives the needed sense of Mystery.
But, as I generally approach the events of Arda, fundamental themes like these should be bound to a sort of ultimate 'Order', although they can easily have arcane elements regarding their nature.
In this case, I would say that it wouldn't be possible, in my opinion, that some Elves might survive as spirits in the World, and, occasionally, appear to Humans.
I would say that, whether by sailing from the Grey Havens by choice, or getting old and finally dying, all the Elven souls must necessarily and eventually reach Aman (Valinor or the Halls of Mandos) as any sentient being who dies, regardless of the fact that it remains in Mandos' Realm to be judged (Elves) or leaves the physical Universe (Humans).
Everything would thus be subjected to a certain degree to the Authority of the Valar, the Archangels and Guardians of Arda 
I know, it might sound not very democratic, but, in the end, Valinor is an absolutist Theocracy 

The presence and the trace of the Elves would thus be gradually deleted and forgotten as well from the ordinary and disenchanted World, alive only in Aman, the only place where they can fully live according to their immortal Nature.

Talking about Silvan Elves, is it written somewhere in the books if Thranduil went to Valinor or stayed to rule his kingdom? My theory is that he stayed in Middle-earth, but does the lore contradict this?

As far as I know, Thranduil's fate is completely unknown.
But, I always hope that any Elf will eventually pass beyond the Sea 

[ThorinsNemesis]

Well, if Thranduil's fate is unknown, he may have decided that his people in Eryn Lasgalen needed him, so he may have decided to remain in Middle-earth.
^^DieWalküre, since his fate is unknown, he may have passed into the West. But, since I like to imagine some Elves remained in Middle-earth, I hope he remained to lead his people  .

[Walküre]

Well, if Thranduil's fate is unknown, he may have decided that his people in Eryn Lasgalen needed him, so he may have decided to remain in Middle-earth.
^^DieWalküre, since his fate is unknown, he may have passed into the West. But, since I like to imagine some Elves remained in Middle-earth, I hope he remained to lead his people  .

What about his wife? 

She may have found Peace in the Halls of Mandos, and, then, reborn and gained back her physical body, to live forever in the Evergreen Plains of Valinor.
So, why won't our Thranduil reunite with his Love to be eternally in the Joy of Valimar, among the Holy Ones? 

Even though, if he really decided to reach the Immortal Shores, he would obviously 'lose' any kind of Authority, intended as the Authority that he (and all the other Elven Lords) had in the mortal World.

[Gandalf The Gray]

i dont think that this is  Valimar

[Walküre]

i dont think that this is  Valimar

Yes, it is.
In DieWalküre's imagination, at least