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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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hoho96:
As far as I know (from the quotes), I always imagined the Balrog with demon-like wings that were dripping darkness around him^^
And yeah it's pretty clear in the book that the Balrog DID have wings. However, I'm not so sure about Balrogs of F.A.
I've imagined them in different shapes, much like how Orcs are different than each other  [ugly]

Adamin:
Nope, this would be just a very literal reading of the text. Like Estel said it's more likely a metaphor. Tolkien describes the incorporeal darkness and shadows that spread from the Balrog like two vast wings. The second sentence reuses the metaphor.

Would you also think that this:

--- Zitat ---"I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread."
--- Ende Zitat ---
means Bilbo is literally turned into butter and scraped on a piece of bakery? :D

Another pretty clear piece of evidence is that the Balrog of Moria (as well as the Balrog that Glorfindel fought) was defeated by throwing him down a mountain. Gandalfs whole plan in Moria is based upon this. That doesn't make a lot of sense if a Balrog would indeed be capable of flying, does it?

Der Dunkle König:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am 10. Apr 2015, 18:48 ---Would you also think that this:

--- Zitat ---"I feel thin, sort of stretched, like butter scraped over too much bread."
--- Ende Zitat ---
means Bilbo is literally turned into butter and scraped on a piece of bakery? :D

--- Ende Zitat ---
I don't think that's a good comparison: Physiological Balrogath could have wings, but Bilbo couldn't be bread or butter. That means you can take the quote about the Balrog literally, but not the quote about Bilbo.


--- Zitat von: Adamin am 10. Apr 2015, 18:48 ---Another pretty clear piece of evidence is that the Balrog of Moria (as well as the Balrog that Glorfindel fought) was defeated by throwing him down a mountain. Gandalfs whole plan in Moria is based upon this. That doesn't make a lot of sense if a Balrog would indeed be capable of flying, does it?

--- Ende Zitat ---
Nobody talked about flying, just wings. Having wings doesn't mean being able to fly. Like ostriches. ;)
And even if they were able to fly, we do not know what happened when they fell. Maybe Gandalf and Glorfindel hindered them from flying away, just like in the movie, by fighting them.
By the way, there is another quote from Appendix A, Duron's Folk:
--- Zitat ---Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth
--- Ende Zitat ---
Yes, you could call it another metaphor, and I can not falsify it, but I doubt that you can prove it.
There is a reason for this never ending discussion about winged Balrogath: there is no real evidence. So my opinion is that everybody should keep his own opinion and be happy with it.

hoho96:
I couldn't agree more with you^^

At any rate, ingame the balrog looks pretty badass WITH wings. So yeah that's damn cool  [uglybunti]

Adamin:
Don't worry, I'm not arguing for removing all wings of all Balrog-depictions. ;)
The movie version is pretty cool as it is, so no changes needed. (Also it is technically okay, because I think there is no membrane between its "wing fingers", so no real wings)

It's more just an interesting thing to think about. And since its one of the most discussed LotR-questions on the internet, I'm not alone with this.


--- Zitat von: Der Dunkle König am 10. Apr 2015, 19:48 ---Yes, you could call it another metaphor, and I can not falsify it, but I doubt that you can prove it.

--- Ende Zitat ---
Actually, I can prove it. :D

The word "flying" here, from its base form "flight", is not used in the modern sense of flying like a bird, but rather an old-fashioned english meaning: fleeing, or escaping with great haste.


--- Zitat von: Wiktionary ---[..] from Old English flyht, from Proto-Germanic *fluhtiz, derived from *fleuhaną (“to flee”). Cognate with Dutch vlucht and German Flucht
--- Ende Zitat ---
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flight

Seeing as Tolkien was a linguist, he was shurely aware of this meaning. Not only that but he used it many times. Chapter 12 of The Fellowship of the Ring, first book, is called "Flight to the Ford". Asfaloth wasn't carrying Frodo through the air. After the Fight with the Balrog Gandalf calls out: "Fly, you fools!" He wasn't talking about the eagles here (although there is a great and funny fan-theory about this ^^).

So yeah, the Appendix most likely does not talk about the Balrog actually flying but rather fleeing from the ruins of Thangorodrim. Thus no evidence for wings.

And yes, I'm talking about functional wings. Saying that a Balrog could have had wings incapable of flying is a nice loophole (see the movie) but nothing that can really be argued about.

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