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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am  4. Nov 2015, 11:28 ---I never heard of that before. Is there really some source that describes something like that?


--- Ende Zitat ---

It's something I read once on Tolkien Gateway, the last paragraph of the 'Decline of the Elves', extrapolated from a passage of the 'Morgoth's Ring', as showed in the second reference at the bottom of the page.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Elves

But, as I have already said, it's not really something that convinces me very much, and, probably, this trait might be a later addition, as for what concerns many other themes.

The Elves, just like the Humans, are necessarily bound to their physical body, which, together with their spiritual part (soul), forms their Essence and capability of living/existing.
One half can't exist alone without the other (Fëa and Hröa)  :)
Only the Ainur, among all the sentient beings, could exist only with their spiritual component, as they were created in the Timeless Halls without a physical appearance, and they incarnated themselves later in the physical World; even though, they too suffer serious consequences if the lose their body, like Sauron throughout the events of Arda.

What stated in that passage implies, I guess, the possibility of some Elves to exist as invisible spirits in the World, lingering until the End of Time like the now harmless Sauron.
I think, instead, that every Elf remained in Middle Earth has to necessarily die at a certain point, and, given that their soul can't exist alone, wait as a spirit in the Halls of Mandos for its judgement.
The Wraith condition is something really rare, I would say, as a sort of exception in the Tolkien Universe (along with many other exceptions), that involves a 'cursed' and 'degenerate' element in it, as for example the condition of the Nazgûl, or the one of the Oathbreakers; or, as stated above, exceptional reasons, like the Nature and abilities of the Ainur of never really dying once and for all, but always existing somehow (even in a weaker or harmless state).

ThorinsNemesis:
I personally don't think the fading Elves in Middle-earth would die, I think they remained immortal, but maybe hid themselves very well, and most of them lived in cave kingdoms; at least the Silvan elves and the Avari lived mostly in cave realms, so maybe we can assume the remaining Avari and Silvan Elves lived on in their underground dwellings, but just managed to make the entrances difficult to find?

Adamin:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  4. Nov 2015, 12:14 ---It's something I read once on Tolkien Gateway, the last paragraph of the 'Decline of the Elves', extrapolated from a passage of the 'Morgoth's Ring', as showed in the second reference at the bottom of the page.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Now that is interesting.
I suppose you can't really say then, if it is canon or not, since Morgoth's Ring (as the whole History of Middle-earth Series) consists of early manuscripts and development notes from Prof. Tolkien. Strictly speaking none of this made it into the published, finished Versions of the Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion, and I guess Tolkien had good reasons for that.

But I looked up the quote that the Invisible Elves are based on anyway. It's quite fascinating.


--- Zitat ---For the Eldar do indeed grow older, even if slowly: the limit of their lives is the life of Arda, which though long beyond the reckoning of Men is not endless, and ages also. 
Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. 
This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Morgoth's Ring: The Later Quenta Silmarillion - Laws and Customs Among the Eldar

This Passage does seem unfinished to me. First it speaks of a 'psychological' change. Stress (weight of the years) through the experience of change (change in desire and thought) on the Spirit manifests itself in a change of behavior (impulses and moods of the body).
But then it does mention the literal consuming of the body. So it kindof talks about two different things and does not combine the two. My guess is the Professor would have refined and rewritten this coherently, if he would have wanted to add it into the Silmarillion.

Then again it also states the becoming of invisible spirits as an external information. "And they say that all the Eldalie will have become spirits". So it is not told as a fact from the author, but rather something like a legend, an assumption. It does not necessarily has to be exactly like this.

I do like the first two sentences though, were it says that the life of the Elves is like the life of the world, aging indeed but very slowly. So watching an Elf grow old is kindof like watching a mountain, or an ocean grow old. They do change, grow, reform, but so slowly that a single human does not perceive any change.
Pretty cool concept. ^^


So yeah, who is to say what happens to the elves that stay? No one knows! And that in itself is somewhat beautiful. ^^

ThorinsNemesis:
^^Well then, I guess in this case we can only speculate on what happened to the Avari and Silvan Elves who remained in Middle-earth  :).
Talking about Silvan Elves, is it written somewhere in the books if Thranduil went to Valinor or stayed to rule his kingdom? My theory is that he stayed in Middle-earth, but does the lore contradict this?

LordDainIronfoot:
I think it is not clearly stated if he left or stayed! :-)

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