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Lore Corner - Questions and Debates

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VectorMaximus:
I personally do not take most of what is in 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn' as canon. It contradicts the existing story too much, and much like you, I feel it cheapens Galadriel as a character.

What I meant by "I take it as Canon", is that I take the white council in the second age as canon. Some people have written it off in discussions I've had simply because it's in the Unfinished Tales. While some things in that book, as I'm sure we both know, shouldn't be considered part of the canon, the small parts and tidbits that fill in holes in the universe are perfectly acceptable in my opinion. Information such as the SA white council, Elrond's Vice-Regency, the Tale of Cirion and Eorl, Aldarion and his wife, things like that I consider canon because they fill in non-existentant parts of the lore, or at worst contradict a few minor facts, while giving us so much more.

Walküre:
I understood that you didn't like that version as well, I was just making a personal statement on my own  :)

And, you are right, that version 'cheapens' indeed Galadriel, diverting so much from the original and 'pure' source of the Silmarillion, that I consider the spiritual heart of the whole Legendarium, even if it seems, sometimes, to be a sort of rough and incomplete material.
Especially, along with the arrival of Galadriel in Middle Earth, I really don't like the fact that Celeborn is not a Sindarin Prince at the court of Elwë in Doriath or that Galadriel didn't take part in the Rebellion and even had the allowance of the Valar to leave Aman (really contradictory, as you wrote).

I have no problem with the White Council in the Second Age, honestly.
Just, I am definitely more focused on its counterpart in the Third Age  ;)

Adamin:
That's a very interesting discussion, but I'm afraid now it's my turn to just not having the time to give a proper answer to this, I'm sorry...

But I spotted something interesting in another thread that I would like to examine a bit closer here.


--- Zitat von: VectorMaximus am 27. Jan 2016, 03:11 ---My personal vote goes for Celebrimbor. While the Shadow of Mordor game is not canonical obviously, and the fact that Celebrimbor is a spirit barred from the undying lands more so; Sauron would not have the might, nor the Valar reason to bar him, since his only sin was being deceived, something Sauron has done to plenty of people over the years(can anyone say Numenor?), at least he had good intentions in his failings, and he did save the 3.
--- Ende Zitat ---

(Obviously this does not strictly speaking belongs into the Lore Corner, but since imho Shadow of Mordor works pretty good with the Lore, it's worth examining.)

There is actually a reason given in the game on why Celebrimbor stayed as a Wraith in Middle-earth. After the destruction of Eregion and the death of Celebrimbors family Sauron takes Celebrimbor back to Mordor as a captive. The Dark Lord has a Problem: The One Ring shines like a beacon in the darkness to every Elf who uses a Ring of Power. That is how they immediately knew of Annatars deception (something that btw is never really questioned in the books).

But Sauron still wants to finish his plans in secrecy. So he takes Celebrimbor, the only other great Ringsmith, back to Mordor and forces him to finish the One Ring, to hide its powers. Celebrimbor is stricken by grief over his loss, and overcome by a desire for vengeance. He agrees to work on the One Ring, but in secret he plots to betray Sauron as well. While working on the Ring, Celebrimbor puts a small piece of his own Power into the Ring, thus gaining control over it. In an unguarded moment, he slips the Ring off Saurons finger and flees into Mordor.

What follows is told in the Bright Lord DLC for the game, but the main issue is here:
Celebrimbor did the same thing that Sauron himself did. The Elf fused a piece of his own Power with the One Ring. So like Sauron he became bound to the Ring. Like Sauron Celebrimbor cannot die as long as the One Ring exists. So he wanders around Mordor as a bodyless Wraith, in search of all the things he lost...

At least that is what happens in the game, and it is in my opinion a very skillful rendition of the scenario What if a high Elf would use the One Ring.

hoho96:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am 31. Jan 2016, 03:20 ---At least that is what happens in the game, and it is in my opinion a very skillful rendition of the scenario What if a high Elf would use the One Ring.

--- Ende Zitat ---
An idea for some ingame Ring hero? anyone?  xD

The_Necromancer0:
This is something I read up on reddit about an Ent gaining the One Ring which I actually found to be quite interesting to discuss. When I say Ent, though, I mostly think of Treebeard.

As a preliminary I think it is important to understand what it is the Ring does exactly for any newcomers. As far as I know, the Ring gives entities the power they need to realize their deepest desire and then corrupts the heck out of them. This is best shown by Gandalf's reaction when Frodo offers him the ring.

--- Zitat ---Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep it safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this Ring from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Gandalf realizes that from this desire to do good would sprout evil, even continuing on (in the novel), and saying he does not wish to become a Dark Lord himself.

Now let's have a look at what happened if Treebeard wielded it. Many people mentioned that it would probably have no effect but that's no fun so I'll go directly to the second option where he takes the Ring a his own and wield its power.

Treebeard is an Ent, a shepherd of trees, his role is to keep trees "in-check" largely speaking but he desires nothing more then to find the Entiwives which he believes are lost, presumed dead. Drawing from his reaction at the destruction of the forest it is reasonable to say he also wishes to protect his kind. Therefore if he were to gain the power of the One Ring it is possible that he would act similar to the Elves and try to preserve the forest by all means. This could possibly include waging war upon all other creatures that use wood, especially the Orc, most probably killing Saruman with his own hands. The corruption that is caused by the One Ring would lead him to become quite careless of his fellow's Ent lives, setting his eyes only upon the final point of total victory.

In the end they would easily destroy Isengard with their new power, probably Rohan which had severe serious casualties and with their only fortress breached. As for Gondor and Mordor I don't think it would be very likely, even hypothesizing that the power the Ring awakens all the Ents that had become trees breaching the door would be complicated but possible however hunting down every human would be a lengthy job. Destroying Mordor on the other side would be straight up impossible, they are too big to take the pass of Cirith Ungol and the Black Gate is most probably made of a Material stronger then the Orthanc. In addition Mordor loves fire ammo of all sorts. The final result would be a maimed Gondor, a destroyed Rohan, Isengard and possibly Elves who have no weapons against trees, not even axes. In addition the Ring would by pried from the cold dead corpse of Treebeard and given back to Sauron assuring a complete doom for Middle Earth.

*insert Ent joke about being hasty*  xD

I'm curious to know what you think of it. But I most interested about hearing what you thought of the power level estimation. Do you think Treebeard would have gained enough power to siege Mordor or less power that he would be defeated at the gates of Minas Tirith. I'm also wondering whether he would actually attack Middle-Earth or if he would go on a long journey to find the Entwives. Anyway, hope to hear from you guys

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