about siege weapon

[ziqing]

Dear Edain team,

I do think we should reconsider the balance of siege weapon in Bfme1 system:

(1)Battle ram, in my opinions they are kind of OP in current version, you cannot really stop them from rushing in and destroy your buildings. My suggestion is to reduce the cost and impair battle ram at same time, make battleram of mordor, rohan and Isengard cheap but vulnerable to range damage, since they do not have protection, Gondor ram could have more resistance towards arrows but are more expensive.

 Also, I think you should also make battle ram unable to move(or move very slowly) when attacked or just approached by melee enemy, so they cannot ignore all enemies and rush like crazy. They should be only efficient when covered by melee units.

You could make Isengard battle ram able to combine with shield Uruks(from lv3 uruk pit)to greatly enhance their range protection and make them unstoppable when being attacked by melee units.

Also, I still think if city wall could be so easily destroyed then why bother attacking the gate?

(2)Catapult(also giant ballista of Isengard): Now they have ridiculous long range, they could destroy your Citadel outside the city wall and hit your army accurately in the field battle, I think that's kind of unrealistic and unbalanced,my suggestions are

Reduce the range of siege weapon a bit, I think we should have troll Catapult>Gondor Catapult>ballista of Isengard>Mordor Catapult>Rohan Catapult(which should be cheap but crude). It will be good to prevent the siege weapon to reach the building outside the city wall(if possible for bfme engine) since city wall could block the project trajectory somehow.

Also importantly, reduce their view range, which means they may have long attack range but they cannot attack without friendly units scout for them. Also maybe reduce their precision or add friendly damage, or make them unabe to attack when being attacked by melee units any way make them useless in field battle, as they should be.

Also about building, I suggest you give Gondor and Rohan a special building slot in settlement to build well(fountain) and statue, and make them effective for all units in the settlement(just make them cost more if you find that unbalance), it is kind of a waste to use a building slot just build a statue(and also a little bit weird for city layout)

I may not check it myself, do we have Morgul or Sauron statue in Edain 4.0 for mordor? I think it may be cool to have them back as outbuildings of Citadel to frighten your enemy(maybe you do include that part, I need to check later...)

[Adrigabbro]

A little up out of nowhere, but as I've played more often recently, I've been able to note that battering rams seem definitely too strong. You need too much to stop them; as it is right now they perform way more than they should do.

[hoho96]

I agree on battering rams having a little too much resistance to melee. On one instance, I was playing with Dr.House and I do know that he can recall how I was trolling him with Gondor rams 
I think the resistance to archers is just right, but against melee it should be nerfed a little (at least against heroes).

[ziqing]

I think the resistance to archers is just right, but against melee it should be nerfed a little (at least against heroes).

Could you agree that a battle ram without cover by melee units could survive arrows from garrison archers? I don't think so.

[-Mandos-]

You're right. But ingame your archers can just focus a ram without hitting other units so covering is useless... To be at least a little bit useful a ram must not be countered by archers.

[hoho96]

Could you agree that a battle ram without cover by melee units could survive arrows from garrison archers? I don't think so.

Dude, this is not Total War were you can kill the crew and stop the equipment. In BFME you either kill the whole ram or you don't. If the rams are made to be weaker to archers, then what's the point? they will be completely useless.
Moreover, sticking to the movies and books, the rams in most sieges (HelmsDeep and MinasTirith for example) were usually ignorant to the archer fire (again this is not Total War, so don't say "Uruks with shields") and were only stopped by a melee attack (Aragorn and Gimli (or Eomer in the book) in HelmsDeep, and the Rohirrim on the Pelenor).

So in the logic of Middle Earth (and the game for that matter) rams should be weaker to melee, but still with some resistance to archers for balance.

[ziqing]

Could you agree that a battle ram without cover by melee units could survive arrows from garrison archers? I don't think so.

Dude, this is not Total War were you can kill the crew and stop the equipment. In BFME you either kill the whole ram or you don't. If the rams are made to be weaker to archers, then what's the point? they will be completely useless.
Moreover, sticking to the movies and books, the rams in most sieges (HelmsDeep and MinasTirith for example) were usually ignorant to the archer fire (again this is not Total War, so don't say "Uruks with shields") and were only stopped by a melee attack (Aragorn and Gimli (or Eomer in the book) in HelmsDeep, and the Rohirrim on the Pelenor).

So in the logic of Middle Earth (and the game for that matter) rams should be weaker to melee, but still with some resistance to archers for balance.

Well,battle ram is just a bunch of orcs or peasants hold a a stick of wood, without shields these poor guys will quickly get slaughtered by archers, archers didn't need to kill the "wood" to stop the battle ram. That's why battle ram always need to be covered by other units, no matter in movies or in reality. In the siege of helms deep, battle ram of Isengard is protected by shield , in the siege of white city mordor orcs holding battle ram get slaughtered by Gondor archers
I just can't understand why orcs get more resistance towards arrows when they hold a battle ram. My point is to force player to mix battle ram and orcs spams(to attract arrows), right now I just see four battle rams run like crazy and destroy all the buildings

[Whale Sharku]

My point is to force player to mix battle ram and orcs spams(to attract arrows)

Well this would hardly work, it would be pretty frustrating to see your rams get destroyed although you protect them by an entire army, but that's just how arrows work, they can pick their target.

However, if you are feeling that right now the battle rams do to well, maybe they are just not weak enough against melee attacks? (as was already suggested)

[Sir_Stig]

I think the issue here is that you are trying to balance them for fights vs computers, and ignoring pvp matches where the defender would just focus on the rams. I think the ranged defence is good where is stands, but melee should have either reduced defence, or reduced speed while under melee attack, or both.

[jcaramhir]

I wish to extend the time of creation of the siege weapons especially the mechanical type, because this game is not in a modern age that has a modern machinery to be built quickly.

I hope you guys liked it!

just wanted to enjoy the game more longer. 

[NetoD20]

I have to agree with ziging on his thoughts on siege weapon balance, indeed they are OP.

I also have to agree with him that spending build slots on fountains and statues is a terrible waste of slots. Because even though they are certainly useful, getting more resource buildings or economic buildings is certainly a better option by far. I think all factions should get additional statue/fountain-only slots in castles or otherwise this building option will never get used. You should of course make them expensive, slow to build, and require another building and an upgrade in that building to be constructed. Stoneworker would be the perfect building for this in Gondor, and given that that building generally is only built much later in the game, I see no problem with this suggestion.

On the resistance of rams against arrows, I hate to admit, but I have to agree with hoho96, Whale Sharku, and Sir Stig (boy, with have some weird nick names around here). See, I agree that, realistically, unprotected ram carriers should be slaughtered by archers. But ziging, I think you have to agree with me that the way arrow shooting works in this game, with all its precision, is almost as much unrealistic as arrow-resistant ram units. So yes, arrow vulnerable ram units would become useless, it doesn't matter if you put a thousand infantry soldiers around them, the player and the AI could just ignore the mass and make their archers focus on the rams and bang.

If you make ram units realistically vulnerable to arrows, then it would be only natural (not to say fair) to implement realistic unprecise archers that target an area instead of a game unit battalion and introduce friendly fire, and that would suck LOADS. But, as hoho96 stressed, this is not Total War (not that I'm agaisnt taking good elements from other games, I'm not), and the point of this game is not realistic warfare. It is a high fantasy game where you shouldn't worry logistics, ballistic and the fact that you just pumped a thousand soldiers from a small unproportional barrack in minutes. A barrack where you shouldn't be able to fit even one or two battalions inside, much less a whole army.

[Adrigabbro]

I also have to agree with him that spending build slots on fountains and statues is a terrible waste of slots. Because even though they are certainly useful, getting more resource buildings or economic buildings is certainly a better option by far.

Have you ever tried a fast hero strategy with Rohan? (especially in 3v3 or 4v4 games). Basically, you take as many settlements as you can while fulfilling your base with 5 statues. Now enjoy facing Gamling, Hama, Theodred, Eomer and Eowyn after less than 10 minutes.

Nevertheless, I like your idea about special plots for statues and fountains.

EDIT: Concerning rams and siege weapons in general, I think the most needed change right now is to increase damage taken by rams and catapults against flying units.

[ziqing]

OK, here is a recent thought.

What if, we make battle ram vulnerable to arrows, but give them a huge ranged defense whenever they have friendly hordes nearby?

[NetoD20]

I don't understand anything about modding ziging, but if it's possible, I think it is a great idea.
I also thought of making rams semi-invisible by camouflage around a great number of allies in the same way that rangers get camouflage around trees.

[Morgul Orc]

I also thought of making rams semi-invisible by camouflage around a great number of allies in the same way that rangers get camouflage around trees.

Sounds like a great idea but what if the battering ram is around a great number of allies in front of your gate or structures? Wouldn't it be invisible until you kill most of the units around it? It might be annoying to have a invisible untouchable ram demolishing your structures.

I agree that the battering rams are OP. Maybe we can increase the cost or decrease damage done by the ram or both. Battering rams do get some damage from fire arrows.

[NetoD20]

I'm not certain Morgul Orc, but I believe that camoflage ends if you're too close to enemy structures or right in front of their unit's nose.