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Who is the third most powerful being during the time of Hobbit and Lord of the Rings stories?

Saruman of Many Colours
Smaug
Balrog
Elrond
Glorfindel
Witch king of Angmar

Autor Thema: Who is the third most powerful being in the Middle - earth?  (Gelesen 23806 mal)

DropItLikeItsDogg

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #15 am: 4. Mai 2015, 06:21 »
I think Saruman. He is lord of Isengard and head of the White Council, we all know Saruman the White were the most wisest wizard, and Saruman of many colours defeated Gandalf easily, he created maybe the best type of orcs and catapults IN A LITTLE WHILE, Saruman is more creative than Sauron. Saruman wasn't puppet of Sauron like in films, he wanted ring for himself because he were so explorer.

Adrigabbro

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #16 am: 4. Mai 2015, 19:46 »
C'mon guys, Smaug rulz! :D


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Sir_Stig

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #17 am: 4. Mai 2015, 20:14 »
How is this even a question? Without his ring Sauron definitely isn't the most powerful being. Galadrial is probably the most powerful magic being, Followed by the Witch-King. But if we are talking outright IWillF**kYouUpidness then Smaug takes the cake, A mature winged dragon would have wiped the floor with ARMIES led by the other beings on this list, never-mind 1v1. Earendil had to save the day the last time winged dragons were in a major battle, and that was in the first age when Elves and Men were still essentially at the height of their power. Smaug died because of a prophesy, not because of weakness.

hoho96

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #18 am: 5. Mai 2015, 10:46 »
Zitat
if we are talking outright IWillF**kYouUpidness then Smaug takes the cake
This just made my day  [uglybunti]

I think without doubt that Sauron is obviously the most powerful and most feared being since the Second Age with or withOUT his ring (well, the ring is still Sauron himself after all).
The argument of Galadriel holding Lothlórien against everything but Sauron WITH his ring is invalid.
it's true that Sauron was the only force that can overcome Galadriel, but he's able to do it even without his ring.
Zitat
the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome,
unless Sauron had come there himself
If he needed the ring to do it, then it's not even a possibility anymore cause the ring is simply not in reach!
Another thing is in Dol Guldur at the time of The Hobbit it was the WHITE COUNCIL (not Galadriel alone) who drove Sauron out if you even call it "driven out".
Even more, sticking to the lore, the White Council didn't even had the chance to confront Sauron! Here's the quote from the appendix:
Zitat
Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.

Bottom line is: Sauron IS the "IWillF**kYouUpidness" situation that anyone on S.A. to T.A. Middle-Earth would face  [ugly]

Walküre

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #19 am: 5. Mai 2015, 20:24 »
The line of Tolkien about the Hidden Power that dwells in Lothlórien (Galadriel and Nenya) is quite absolute :P No one could have never overcome Galadriel in her own realm without the One Ring.
He tried during the War of the Ring, when the forces of Dol Guldur attacked Lothlórien three times but were repeatedly repulsed by the Magic of Galadriel (that protects and permeates her realm) and the power of Nenya, that preserves the integrity of Lothlórien.

Tolkien only wrote that the White Council attacked Dol Guldur and drove Sauron out of the fortress, it is not precisely written who led the final assault or directly confronted Sauron, or if this very confrontation really took place; we only know that the White Council was there, and so could have been Galadriel, as its most powerful and fundamental member (she established the White Council herself), and that she then could have clashed with a 'weak' and diminished Sauron.
Everything is left to everyone's interpretation, and PJ chose, rightly, to adapt the version in which Galadriel banishes Sauron  ;)
We could have had Saruman confronting Sauron or Elrond leading an army of Elves of Rivendell against Dol Guldur and forcing Sauron to flee; the Tolkien's words can often be perceived as obscure or enigmatic (especially in the Annals), but this is the beauty of Tolkien after all  :)

I explained everything in my previous comment :)

As you rightly wrote, hoho96, the One Ring is deeply tied to Sauron's existence and a very part of himself, having lost it and not having the possibility to use it are a real tragedy for him.
He was defeated at the end of the First Age and kneed to the might of Eönwë and asked for the forgiveness of the Valar; he lost his power, as a Maia, of shape shifting when he lost his body after the destruction of Númenor and lost completely the ability of appearing in a physical form when he was parted from the One Ring.
Sauron has been recollecting his powers and recovering himself during the entire Third Age, but still, when he openly manifests himself, he is at about less than 20-30% of his immense powers; without the One Ring he can't take a physical form and thus confront directly powerful beings like Galadriel or Saruman, he naturally relies on the strength of his powerful armies and strong and evil servants.

Galadriel is a holy being of Valinor, and the representation of the legendary light of the Two Trees through her hair, she can't be defeated by Sauron in her own  realm or in the surrounding woods  ;)

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #20 am: 5. Mai 2015, 23:25 »
I wouldnt take the quote about Galadriel and her forest too serious... I guess any Maia at full power could overcome her magic defenses and breach Lorien. Imagine the Balrog walking into Lorien  [uglybunti]

Nonetheless I would say that Galadriel is definitly among the most powerful, only surpassed by Gandalf the White (who said that he would be able to defeat anyone but the Dark Lord himself or so?) and Sauron.
Even if Sauron lost a lot of his "magical" and physical powers he is still able to control huge armies, to intimidate Saruman and almost take control over middle-earth. For me this is also a kind of power, also an "outsourced" one :D
A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen!
Túrin, master of doom, by doom mastered!

orkanelf

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #21 am: 5. Mai 2015, 23:40 »
wtf Tom Bombadil!!!

-Mandos-

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #22 am: 5. Mai 2015, 23:46 »
I am not talking about Tom Bombadil because with him we are in the completely different dimension.  :o
He is something or someone really unique. My interpretation is that he is the most powerful being but only in his teritory, inside the borders.
A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen!
Túrin, master of doom, by doom mastered!

Walküre

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #23 am: 6. Mai 2015, 01:40 »
I wouldnt take the quote about Galadriel and her forest too serious... I guess any Maia at full power could overcome her magic defenses and breach Lorien. Imagine the Balrog walking into Lorien  [uglybunti]

I think that it's quite obvious that Tolkien meant that no one could have never overcome her without the One Ring in the specific age that it is the Third Age, leaving thus apart any Vala, Maia or other foul and terrible creatures of the First Age :)
And I would leave apart even the Balrog, because he is a remnant of the Elder Days, a terrible Maia that hid himself after his defeat in the First Age, and he is not supposed to be active and present in the time of the War of the Ring; I think he is an exception, virtually and theorically out from the 'politics' and the balance of powers of the Third Age.
But you are obviously right, since the Balrog is the only Maia at full powers, he could have laid ruined Lothlórien :)

About the line, since the Golden Woods remained a holy and timeless sanctuary, untouched and untainted by any form of evil for more than 3000 years, while the woodland realm of Mirkwood was gradually marred by the gathering evil and got darker and more dangerous, I would totally take that line very seriously :P

Gandalf the White is obviously stronger and more similar to a Maia than his Grey counterpart, but he is still a Wizard, and thus he has heavy restrictions on his powers and memories; if you read my first comment on this thread, you will see that I explained it there better :)

And, by the way, the reborn Gandalf was sheltered and clothed in White by Galadriel herself; it was Galadriel, not an average Hilda Bianca :D

In my previous comments I clearly said that gathering armies and being a terrible and dark leader are obviously multiple meanings of 'Power'; but I am referring to the magical powers of Sauron (the 'modifications' that his essence causes in the World), powers that were mostly lost during the ages of the World.

If you want, I can answer you with the words of Haldir (Tolkien) in the Fellowship of the Ring book, since I recently read again this passage :)

The following words are a synthesis that I made of the words of Haldir :)

When he is accompanying the Fellowship to Caras Galadhon, he talks about the bliss and majesty of Lothlórien and compares this realm to Dol Guldur in the East (where the Darkness has returned, more powerful than ever) and to Mordor itself in the far East; Haldir says that the wills of Galadriel and Sauron clash together from afar (Lothlórien and Mordor) in a sort of 'telepathic' fight, in which the two try to see through each other's minds and plans, and Galadriel succeeds in it, while Sauron not.
In Haldir's words, she is also represented as the embodiment of Light, and Sauron the embodiment of Darkness, and Galadriel is the nemesis of Sauron in the World; Haldir also says that the 'secret' (Nenya) of the strength and bliss of Lothlórien has not yet been discovered.

« Letzte Änderung: 15. Mai 2015, 17:01 von DieWalküre »

-Mandos-

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #24 am: 6. Mai 2015, 15:44 »
Haldir says that the wills of Galadriel and Sauron clash together from afar (Lothlórien and Mordor) in a sort of 'telepathic' fight, in which the two try to see through each other's minds and plans, and Galadriel succeeds in it, while Sauron not.

Well, you're right about that:)
But again we have to take into account that Sauron isn't fighting Galadriel only (he also has Saruman and Denethor with their Palantiri and is controlling his armies etc.), while Galadriel can focus fully on defending her realm.
And whats about Nenya? Do we just take it as part of Galadriel? Normally a magical artifact like this isnt fair to compare to characters, on the other hand she always has it...
A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen!
Túrin, master of doom, by doom mastered!

Crimson King

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #25 am: 6. Mai 2015, 18:20 »
Gandalf answers this questions almost directly in the Two Towers

Zitat von: -Gandalf
Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord

Sauron is the most powerful being during the War of the Ring, even without his ring. Gandalf comes second, the rest is speculation. As far as I know this is the clearest indication of "power levels" provided by Tolkien, regarding the Third Age.

Walküre

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #26 am: 6. Mai 2015, 19:19 »
I wouldn't consider Saruman or Denethor real threats to Sauron, more as possible obstacles; and, remember, both these two great characters were eventually deceived by Sauron and kind of 'used' by him, and, at the end of the day, all they have done (believing to act freely) was in Sauron's advantage.

Because this is what Sauron is best at, deceiving people :)

Galadriel, instead, remained always loyal and always refused and repulsed Sauron in every way; and she doesn't need a Palantír for her 'telepathic' battles, she does it herself, because she is a force of nature  :P

Saruman and Denethor were subjugated by Sauron, while Galadriel wasn't, and she also could see through his mind.


And whats about Nenya? Do we just take it as part of Galadriel? Normally a magical artifact like this isnt fair to compare to characters, on the other hand she always has it...

I have always regarded Galadriel and Nenya as different matters; it's true that she has had it (openly used) for more than 3000 years and that a Ring of Power is deeply connected to its bearer, but Nenya is still a powerful Elven Artifact.
Galadriel probably uses it also to channel her powers, like the staff of the Wizards, but her powers and essence are not determined only by Nenya; her powers come from afar, from 'the Day before days' in Valinor (as Tolkien says), when the Sun, the Moon and Men didn't exist yet in the World  :)

Nenya preserves the integrity of the Golden Woods, hides them from the enemies and almost totally slows the action of Time in this realm; then, as a Ring of Power, exponentially enhances the natural powers and the magical influence on the World of its bearer.
But it's the specific extremely ancient Magic of Galadriel that fends off the evil and grants her great natural powers (she throws down the walls of Dol Guldur after the defeat of Sauron).


TiberiusOgden

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #27 am: 12. Mai 2015, 12:03 »
It seems that Sauron (although without the One ring) is the clear winner, but real duel is between Gandalf and Galadriel, concerning second place. 8-| :)

Walküre

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #28 am: 12. Mai 2015, 15:13 »
Galadriel is the moral winner :P

Adamin

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Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
« Antwort #29 am: 12. Mai 2015, 17:39 »
Well, I'd say that there is an easy logical way to answer the question.

Let's assume that the most powerful being in Middle-earth was of good nature. In that case the main force of evil (Sauron) should succumb to it. That would mean that there should have been no need for the Quest to destroy the Ring, since the most powerful being could beat Sauron in a direct confrontation.
But that didn't happen in the books, so i think we can assume that this isn't the case.

So let's assume that the most powerful being in Middle-earth was of evil nature. In that case there are two possibilities: Either it is the main Antagonist Sauron, or a rival to him. If a rival to Sauron was in fact more powerful, then the forces of good would have most likely prioritized the fight against him or the rival would have openly attacked Sauron. Both again did not happen in the books.

That's why I'd say it's safe to assume that Sauron must have been the most powerful entity in Middle-earth during the Third Age. Otherwise, why bother with the secret mission to destroy him without the use of open force/power?

Because there were beings in the elder days that could challenge Sauron openly, and we do have examples for confrontations like this: The Battle of the Last Alliance ended (not at all like in the movies) with a fight between Sauron and an all-star team of Middle-earths mightiest heroes: Gil-Galad & Elendil, probably with the help of Isildur, Elrond and Círdan. The first two even died, but all together still managed to defeat Sauron.

But those days passed away and there are no such powers (for good) left in Middle-earth in the Third Age. I think this is mentioned, or at least implied at the Council of Elrond, which again is why they decide to destroy the Ring in secrecy.



Concerning Galadriel:
Well yes she definetly is very powerful, but again she never went out on her own to directly confront Sauron.

She didn't had any restrictions on her actions in Middle-earth like the Istari. In fact she left during the Exile of the Noldor, which basically banished her from Valinor.
It is said that Fëanors words concerning Middle-earth kindled a desire in her heart, as she was eager to see those wide unguarded lands and rule a realm of her own. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Galadriel
So Galadriel went to Middle-earth with the desire to rule, and even renouncing the Undying Lands to do so.

I think its not farfetched to assume that Galadriel would have destroyed Sauron if she could do so without the One Ring, because she tells us that this is exactly what she would do with the One Ring. The Speech that she gives to Frodo (which was a bit overblown in the movies) reflects that Galadriel spent a lot of time thinking about what she would do with the One Ring, and describes how she would rule everyone as a unbearably adored queen. There is a lust for power in Galadriel (although in the end she rejects it/the Ring).

So yeah, Galadriel is actually kinda sketchy regarding her motives and her actions in the books (another example: Why is she testing the hearts of the fellowship members in Lórien, prodding into their darkest fears without consent?)
Therefor I think that she actually couldn't be stronger than Sauron, or else she would have challenged him.
« Letzte Änderung: 12. Mai 2015, 22:22 von Adamin »