Who is the third most powerful being in the Middle - earth?

[Crimson King]

Replying to Adamin, well, while I do agree that Sauron is the most powerful being in Middle-Earth in the TA, at least during the War of the Ring, the argument is flawed. If I understood your point correctly, you argue that if Sauron was not the single most powerful being AND evil then the forces of good needn't be so sneaky sneaky because the corolary would be that there was something more powerful on their side, given that there isn't an antihero or rival to Sauron in any way. But as I took it, the reason why there was such a pressing need to obliterate Sauron through a stealth mission was due to the fact that he was the mastermind behind the formation of incredibly powerful and destructive armies, which on their own would prove too much for "Good" to handle if unchecked (and they would go unchecked if we are talking about gathering an army with a slight chance of assaulting Barad-ur). "One does not simply walk into Mordor"

However, had they had a headstart of, say, 3-5 years to prepare for such an open force display, before Sauron assembled any more troops and allies as he did by the end of the TA, then the use of force might have been effective. Still, even then, I believe the Council of Elrond would have advised for a stealthy way of destroying the ring, if possible, in order to avoid as many casualties as possible.

Again, I stick by what Gandalf said in the books, and he stated Sauron is the only thing more dangerous than himself, that Gimli could ever meet. (well, I guess he either screwed that up by failing to see that Gimli would set sail for the Undying Lands thus probably seeing some Vala or Maia, or he is telling us he perished before he reached them, which is also interesting XD)

[Walküre]

Well, I'd say that there is an easy logical way to answer the question.

It would be a lot easier if we could resolve all the 'mysteries' of Tolkien's lore with logical statements, but I don't think it would be really possible, because all Tolkien's universe is a 'Mystery' (even due to its unfinished and 'tale-told' nature), and that's why it's wonderful

And that's why we can make a lot of speculations, and, of course, everyone is entitled to its own opinion

The word 'Power' has various meanings in Tolkien's works, not necessarily connected to destruction or domination (even if it often refers to that aspect), but also to Beauty, Light and, most importantly, Wisdom; and I think this is exactly one of the main messages that Tolkien 'wants' to give us.
Victory and help often come, infact, from the  apparently 'weakest', most unexpected and humblest ones, as Gandalf tells the White Council during the Watchful Peace; and Victory came, in fact, by Frodo, and it was specifically his destiny and task, when the mightiest ones failed.

Probably we can consider Galadriel and Sauron (without the One Ring) as two 'equal' rivals in Middle Earth, like Haldir says, Light and Darkness that clash together, even though they can't win each other; they are invincible in their own realms (Galadriel in the Golden Woods and Sauron in Mordor), but they don't have the power to give the 'final assault', for deep, and very long to write XD, reasons concerning the nature of their own existence and the nature of Arda.
This is how I personally view things

Remember that, as I wrote in my previous comments, the immense powers of Galadriel gradually increased in time, during her more-than-7000-year-old permanence in Middle Earth, and for the entire Third Age (before the War of the Ring and the final manifestation of Sauron in Mordor and the gathering of all his evil forces) she was at her highest level ever
Sauron took more than 3000 years to recollect a small part of his powers.

If we use 'your' initial reasoning, Sauron (without the One Ring) could have immediately defeated everyone without great difficulties, while we know for sure that he has always understood the real threat of Men and Galadriel (as Tolkien states) could have never been overcome in her own realm without the One Ring.

You see, pure logic doesn't clearly belong to Tolkien's lore
 

[Adamin]

If I understood your point correctly, you argue that if Sauron was not the single most powerful being AND evil then the forces of good needn't be so sneaky sneaky because the corolary would be that there was something more powerful on their side, given that there isn't an antihero or rival to Sauron in any way.

Almost. The sneaky sneaky part isn't the main part of my argument though. It's more the whole decision of not fighting Sauron by force, which leads to the assumption that there is no single force that could beat him.

Saurons armies are of course a decisive factor in this thought, and make the secrecy necessary.
But if you take the One Ring in account, there are many more possibilities. Like I said: Galadriel was pretty sure that she could have defeated Sauron (and replace him) if she took the Ring. Gandalf and Elrond might have been similarly skilled enough to do so.
Even Boromir was pretty confident that Gondor could beat Mordor on the battlefield, if they get more support from their allies. The Ring might help him with the persuasion. Or better: Let Aragorn finally return as the King of all Men! He is strong of will (in the books, though less so than Elendil) so he probably could have used the Ring too and united Middle-earth against Sauron.

Naturally most of those people talk under the influence of the Ring, so we can't be completely sure if it's accurate or wishful thinking. But I personally think that it's not too far of what would have happened (again talking highly speculative here).

And that's actually the beauty of the decision of the Council. They had fought Sauron with force before. They are almost considering doing it again, because it's the obvious thing to do. Heck, that's exactly what Saruman decides to do. Some say they even could use the weapon of the enemy against him, thus changing it to a power of light.
But in the end the wise ones realize that this battle cannot be won by high and powerful individuals, and that all good intention can get corrupted over time.
In the end, it is the friendship of four little hobbits that break the cycle.

You see, pure logic doesn't clearly belong to Tolkien's lore

Considering that Tolkien poured a lot of time and effort into his worldcreating and seeing all the (known) character intentions and actions, I wouldn't dismiss a logical approach to the Lord of the Rings.
Of course there are a lot of hints at bigger, untold stories (what are these Púkel-men actually about anyway?) but if we analyze the stories we know of thoroughly, nearly all of it makes self contained sense.

But sure, most of these thoughts are speculations, based on the texts but not directly out of Tolkiens mind. I personally really like to see the connections behind things, and don't think that it gets "demystified" because of this. On the contrary the mythology gets richer because of the logical cohesion beneath it.


Galadriel cannot be attacked or challenged in Lothlórien (while she has Nenya), that's true. But looking at the map of Middle-earth is that really that much? Lórien is one of the tiniest marked forests, while Mordor, already multiple times bigger, is ever expanding into Ithilien, Osgilliath, even Dol Guldur, and no doubt having connections to Moria and Gundabad.
Sauron maybe cannot defeat Galadriel in her realm, but he surely is working on defeating everything around her, eventually just suffocating her "Light".

Regarding Haldir I'd say his statements has to be viewed critically (though I haven't reread the specific lines). He is a Galadhrim after all, so his opinion is not neutral. Of course he has to believe in his leaders, so of course he says they are the strongest.

Can you give some specific examples for Galadriels power actually increasing (except for the stuff she did with Nenya)? I haven't thought about this before, and it sounds a bit counterintuitive at first. Weren't the elves supposed to dwindle in the Third Age, getting weaker and leaving Middle-earth? The last big bastions of elvendom (Rivendell and Caras Galadhon) were protected by the powers of their elven Rings Vilya and Nenya, but they could only stop or slow down the decline, not reverse it.

[hoho96]

Waw, I think Adamin nailed it   
All hail the Dark Lord winner of "Strongest in Middle-Earth: The 2015 edition"!! 

[Adamin]

I'm sorry, I hope I haven't suffocated anyone myself with this wall of text. 

[Walküre]

Considering that Tolkien poured a lot of time and effort into his worldcreating and seeing all the (known) character intentions and actions, I wouldn't dismiss a logical approach to the Lord of the Rings.

When I wrote that logic doesn't belong to Tolkien's works, I was referring to the best and 'purest' meaning of the matter 
We shouldn't approach the texts, both the 'completed' ones and the unfinished ones (with many contradictions and multiple versions of the history and the very existence of some characters), as if we were reading a math essay, characterised by pure logic and always-true statements.
There is obviously a general logic behind all the mythology and lore, fictionally represented by the Plan of Ilúvatar, from the arrival of the Ainur in the Universe, to the very End, a plan that even the Valar don't totally know and understand; and it's also obvious that Middle Earth in the Third Age, the 'setting' of LOTR, is deeply tied to the Past, the events that occured from the Great Journey of the Eldar to Aman to the beginning of the War of the Ring, and had their natural consequences on the World.
But one of the most 'magical', wonderful and impressive elements of Tolkien's Literature is also this apparent 'suspension of logic' that permeates the events of Arda and determines all the small, unexpected and apparently surprising events (Bilbo and the One Ring, the task of Frodo, the death of the Witch-king by the hand of a woman,...), that, as Galadriel says, can change the course of the Future; there is always a general logic behind them (the Hobbits' nature, the prophecy of Glorfindel,...), but it is kind of hidden, and not very similar to the greatest one of the plot line and whole mythology.
Tolkien, as a professor, also wrote some essays on fairytales (we are talking about myths and ancient tales of course), of which Surprise, Mystery and Obscurity are fundamental parts, where often small events and 'humble' characters decide the fate of the manichean battle of Good and Evil that violently takes place, giving the whole 'picture' (plot line) multiple, multiform, beautiful and different colours.

Lothlórien, as a realm, is much more important than you think in the 'geopolitics' of Middle Earth 
it is probably the only protected, safe and blessed place left beyond the Misty Mountains, guarding the passing of the Anduin and, thus, a possible entry for Mordor to Rohan or Eriador.
Galadriel has not the right and the power to challenge directly Sauron, or gather an army in front of the Black Gate, because her might is connected to Endurance, Protection and counseling the Free People in the fight against Evil, since the great burden of battle and 'military' actions would have mostly been borne by Men; thing that she clearly does when she helps the Fellowship, gives it her advice, refuses the One Ring for the sake of the World and shelters the reborn Gandalf.
Galadriel was always able to see through Sauron's mind and unveil his evil plans for Men, Dwarves and Elves, while her mind was always closed for him.

I strongly believe that the words of Haldir (Tolkien) are very accurate, meaningful and significant, not only for the way they are written, but also for his (of Haldir) wisdom and for his understanding of the World in the Third Age.
Also, Galadriel tells Frodo almost the same thing, talking about her 'telepathic' clashes with Sauron (that she always wins  ) and her role in Middle Earth (Light against Darkness, Lothlórien against Dol Guldur and Mordor).

Can you give some specific examples for Galadriels power actually increasing (except for the stuff she did with Nenya)? I haven't thought about this before, and it sounds a bit counterintuitive at first. Weren't the elves supposed to dwindle in the Third Age, getting weaker and leaving Middle-earth? The last big bastions of elvendom (Rivendell and Caras Galadhon) were protected by the powers of their elven Rings Vilya and Nenya, but they could only stop or slow down the decline, not reverse it.

The destiny of corruption of Arda is ineluctable, and, yes, the Elves are doomed to diminish and get weaker and more tired of Middle Earth, and to sail to Aman, if they want to preserve their Grace; but the answer is simple, Galadriel is not a 'common' Elf 

Galadriel was born in Valinor during the Years of the Trees and was blessed by the holy Light of the Two Trees (that was forever captured in her hair, giving Fëanor the inspiration for the creation of the legendary Silmarils, the fundamental elements of the First Age and the main reason of the tragic and epic War of the Jewels), she was considered already in Aman as the fairest and mightiest elf-maiden of the Noldor, and one of the mightiest Elf in general; she had been dwelling with the Maiar and the Valar and personally taught by them for more than 1000 years, when she chose to leave Valinor for her legitimate desires of ruling a realm on her own.
She was a scholar of the Maia Melian in Beleriand for almost 500 years, improving her already existing 'telepathic' and mind revealing capabilities; at the end of the First Age she was the only one of the mighty and mythical 'Royal Family' of the Noldor that survived the war and the destruction of Beleriand.
In the Second Age, she decides to remain in Middle Earth to rule some of the remaining Noldor and Sindar, with the permission of Gil-galad, and rejects Annatar (Sauron in disguise), unveiling his ambiguous intentions; but, most importantly, she was entrusted Nenya by Celebrimbor and tied her destiny in Middle Earth to her ring.
After the defeat of Sauron by Isildur, Galadriel was finally able to openly use Nenya (that had definitely begun an essential part of her, the 'item' with which she, since then, would have channeled also her other powers) to establish a timeless and enchanted realm, that endured for more than 3000 years, slowing and almost nullifying the action of Time in Lothlórien for 3 millennia.
In the Third Age she is the only being of Valinor and the remnant of its splendour left in the World, a bright and ethereal Elf that had become matter of the legends of Men and also 'grey' and young Elves of that time; the most similar being to a Maia and the 'de facto' queen of the Elves.
A holy light is more visible and brighter in a dark and disenchanted place, which was Middle Earth at that time.

The point is that she increased her powers in time, during her more-than-7000-year-old permanence in Middle Earth, and her might remained untouched, untainted and never suffered any loss; the opposite thing about Sauron, who was repeatedly defeated in the Past and lost twice his body, with tragic consequences for his essence and powers as a Maia.

Yes, I think that Galadriel is the most powerful being in the Third Age for her unaltered essence and powers, obviously not necessarily related to military strength or the task of saving the World 

Waw, I think Adamin nailed it   
All hail the Dark Lord winner of "Strongest in Middle-Earth: The 2015 edition"!! 

Darkness will never prevail 

[Sir_Stig]

Smaug for most powerful being 2015! I'm not sure Sauron could 1v1 Smaug even with the ring, seeing as Isildur was able to cut him with a sword, I can't see Sauron able to deal with dragon fire outright. His only chance would be to dominate Smaugs will, and even that would be suspect as dragons are well known to have perhaps the most powerful wills of all, Even Glaurung didn't consider himself a lackey of Morgoth, more as a free agent who could choose what his involvement was. Even taking into account the diminishement of dragons (Gandalf surmised that Smaugs fire couldn't destroy the ring) I think Smaug could damage Sauron to the point of no longer being attached to the ring, and after that it's GG.

[TiberiusOgden]

Good point,
by the way ... rings of Power (except one) can be destroyed by dragon fire.
It means that only weapon - how to pierce protection of Lorien (caused by Galadriel) - is therefore dragon fire.
It was only luck that Gandalf wan't involved in the situation around mountain or Lake town, otherwise ring of fire could be destroyed as well.

[Walküre]

Smaug for most powerful being 2015!

It would be probably true, if only Smaug was really part of the 'geopolitics' of Middle earth in the Third Age; he suddenly appears from the shadow when he attacks Erebor and takes its control, then he is awakened by the Dwarves and dies by the hand of a man.
Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf, however, have been constantly guarding Middle Earth for more than a millennium, when the War of the Ring starts, being them fundamental characters in the balance of powers in Middle Earth.

The Winged Dragons (Smaug is a remnant of them in the Third Age) are indeed terrible though, they managed to initially fend off the Host of the Valar in the War of Wrath.

[TiberiusOgden]

I've started second round, second poll.

According to first poll we know, that The Dark Lord (althought without the One ring) is the most powerful being, with a considerable distance. The second place belongs to Lady of Light for now.
But the new poll and mainly discussion might bring the new point of view.

Results of the first round:

Necromancer/Sauron 25 (50%)
Galadriel 9 (18%)
Gandalf the White 7 (14%)
Saruman of many colours 1 (2%)
Smaug 4 (8%)
Balrog 1 (2%)
Elrond 0 (0%)
Glorfindel 2 (4%)
Witch king of Angmar 1 (2%)
Total Members Voted: 50

[Adamin]

Sorry Walküre, I'm going with Gandalf the White for the second one. 

[Gimli: ...]"I thought Fangorn was dangerous."
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gloin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion."

- The Two Towers: The White Rider -

[ThorinsNemesis]

Except me and some other few people, it seems almost no one supports Smaug in think poll 

[(Palland)Raschi]

Except me and some other few people, it seems almost no one supports Smaug in think poll 

Well I suppose that Durin's bane is able to kill that dragon without serious problems. How should a dragon kill something that is even older than him and consists of shadows and flames. Personally I see the mightiest of Melkor's soldiers as the most powerful creature in middlearth during the war of the ring and the Hobbit took place.
Sauron would have been my first choice, but without his full power I am not sure he could match with a Balrog. Even Melkor himself needed the support of his his Balrogs against Ungolianth.

[Adamin]

How should a dragon kill something that is even older than him and consists of shadows and flames.

Well, grabbing it and hurling it down a mountain worked a couple of times.
Since Smaug could definetly fly and had supposedly some resistance against fire, I think that shouldn't be a problem for him.

[(Palland)Raschi]

In fact I really doubt you can grap or even transport a great smoking fireball that easy. Even if Smaug could do that, do not forget about the fire whip and his power as a magic creature. If you irgnore that fact you always could argue, that Smaug  is just able to grab any creature like Sauron or Melkor and kill it by throwing it down the mountain.