[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings

Who is the third most powerful being in the Middle - earth?

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Crimson King:
Replying to Adamin, well, while I do agree that Sauron is the most powerful being in Middle-Earth in the TA, at least during the War of the Ring, the argument is flawed. If I understood your point correctly, you argue that if Sauron was not the single most powerful being AND evil then the forces of good needn't be so sneaky sneaky because the corolary would be that there was something more powerful on their side, given that there isn't an antihero or rival to Sauron in any way. But as I took it, the reason why there was such a pressing need to obliterate Sauron through a stealth mission was due to the fact that he was the mastermind behind the formation of incredibly powerful and destructive armies, which on their own would prove too much for "Good" to handle if unchecked (and they would go unchecked if we are talking about gathering an army with a slight chance of assaulting Barad-ur). "One does not simply walk into Mordor" ;)

However, had they had a headstart of, say, 3-5 years to prepare for such an open force display, before Sauron assembled any more troops and allies as he did by the end of the TA, then the use of force might have been effective. Still, even then, I believe the Council of Elrond would have advised for a stealthy way of destroying the ring, if possible, in order to avoid as many casualties as possible.

Again, I stick by what Gandalf said in the books, and he stated Sauron is the only thing more dangerous than himself, that Gimli could ever meet. (well, I guess he either screwed that up by failing to see that Gimli would set sail for the Undying Lands thus probably seeing some Vala or Maia, or he is telling us he perished before he reached them, which is also interesting XD)

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Adamin am 12. Mai 2015, 17:39 ---Well, I'd say that there is an easy logical way to answer the question.

--- Ende Zitat ---

It would be a lot easier if we could resolve all the 'mysteries' of Tolkien's lore with logical statements, but I don't think it would be really possible, because all Tolkien's universe is a 'Mystery' (even due to its unfinished and 'tale-told' nature), and that's why it's wonderful :)

And that's why we can make a lot of speculations, and, of course, everyone is entitled to its own opinion :)

The word 'Power' has various meanings in Tolkien's works, not necessarily connected to destruction or domination (even if it often refers to that aspect), but also to Beauty, Light and, most importantly, Wisdom; and I think this is exactly one of the main messages that Tolkien 'wants' to give us.
Victory and help often come, infact, from the  apparently 'weakest', most unexpected and humblest ones, as Gandalf tells the White Council during the Watchful Peace; and Victory came, in fact, by Frodo, and it was specifically his destiny and task, when the mightiest ones failed.

Probably we can consider Galadriel and Sauron (without the One Ring) as two 'equal' rivals in Middle Earth, like Haldir says, Light and Darkness that clash together, even though they can't win each other; they are invincible in their own realms (Galadriel in the Golden Woods and Sauron in Mordor), but they don't have the power to give the 'final assault', for deep, and very long to write XD, reasons concerning the nature of their own existence and the nature of Arda.
This is how I personally view things :)

Remember that, as I wrote in my previous comments, the immense powers of Galadriel gradually increased in time, during her more-than-7000-year-old permanence in Middle Earth, and for the entire Third Age (before the War of the Ring and the final manifestation of Sauron in Mordor and the gathering of all his evil forces) she was at her highest level ever 8-)
Sauron took more than 3000 years to recollect a small part of his powers.

If we use 'your' initial reasoning, Sauron (without the One Ring) could have immediately defeated everyone without great difficulties, while we know for sure that he has always understood the real threat of Men and Galadriel (as Tolkien states) could have never been overcome in her own realm without the One Ring.

You see, pure logic doesn't clearly belong to Tolkien's lore :)
 

Adamin:

--- Zitat von: Crimson King am 12. Mai 2015, 22:11 ---If I understood your point correctly, you argue that if Sauron was not the single most powerful being AND evil then the forces of good needn't be so sneaky sneaky because the corolary would be that there was something more powerful on their side, given that there isn't an antihero or rival to Sauron in any way.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Almost. The sneaky sneaky part isn't the main part of my argument though. It's more the whole decision of not fighting Sauron by force, which leads to the assumption that there is no single force that could beat him.

Saurons armies are of course a decisive factor in this thought, and make the secrecy necessary.
But if you take the One Ring in account, there are many more possibilities. Like I said: Galadriel was pretty sure that she could have defeated Sauron (and replace him) if she took the Ring. Gandalf and Elrond might have been similarly skilled enough to do so.
Even Boromir was pretty confident that Gondor could beat Mordor on the battlefield, if they get more support from their allies. The Ring might help him with the persuasion. Or better: Let Aragorn finally return as the King of all Men! He is strong of will (in the books, though less so than Elendil) so he probably could have used the Ring too and united Middle-earth against Sauron.

Naturally most of those people talk under the influence of the Ring, so we can't be completely sure if it's accurate or wishful thinking. But I personally think that it's not too far of what would have happened (again talking highly speculative here).

And that's actually the beauty of the decision of the Council. They had fought Sauron with force before. They are almost considering doing it again, because it's the obvious thing to do. Heck, that's exactly what Saruman decides to do. Some say they even could use the weapon of the enemy against him, thus changing it to a power of light.
But in the end the wise ones realize that this battle cannot be won by high and powerful individuals, and that all good intention can get corrupted over time.
In the end, it is the friendship of four little hobbits that break the cycle.



--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 12. Mai 2015, 23:27 ---You see, pure logic doesn't clearly belong to Tolkien's lore :)

--- Ende Zitat ---

Considering that Tolkien poured a lot of time and effort into his worldcreating and seeing all the (known) character intentions and actions, I wouldn't dismiss a logical approach to the Lord of the Rings.
Of course there are a lot of hints at bigger, untold stories (what are these Púkel-men actually about anyway?) but if we analyze the stories we know of thoroughly, nearly all of it makes self contained sense.

But sure, most of these thoughts are speculations, based on the texts but not directly out of Tolkiens mind. I personally really like to see the connections behind things, and don't think that it gets "demystified" because of this. On the contrary the mythology gets richer because of the logical cohesion beneath it.


Galadriel cannot be attacked or challenged in Lothlórien (while she has Nenya), that's true. But looking at the map of Middle-earth is that really that much? Lórien is one of the tiniest marked forests, while Mordor, already multiple times bigger, is ever expanding into Ithilien, Osgilliath, even Dol Guldur, and no doubt having connections to Moria and Gundabad.
Sauron maybe cannot defeat Galadriel in her realm, but he surely is working on defeating everything around her, eventually just suffocating her "Light".

Regarding Haldir I'd say his statements has to be viewed critically (though I haven't reread the specific lines). He is a Galadhrim after all, so his opinion is not neutral. Of course he has to believe in his leaders, so of course he says they are the strongest.

Can you give some specific examples for Galadriels power actually increasing (except for the stuff she did with Nenya)? I haven't thought about this before, and it sounds a bit counterintuitive at first. Weren't the elves supposed to dwindle in the Third Age, getting weaker and leaving Middle-earth? The last big bastions of elvendom (Rivendell and Caras Galadhon) were protected by the powers of their elven Rings Vilya and Nenya, but they could only stop or slow down the decline, not reverse it.

hoho96:
Waw, I think Adamin nailed it   xD
All hail the Dark Lord winner of "Strongest in Middle-Earth: The 2015 edition"!!  [uglybunti]

Adamin:
I'm sorry, I hope I haven't suffocated anyone myself with this wall of text.  [ugly]

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