[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings
Who is the third most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
TiberiusOgden:
Quite nice analysis. ;)
http://askmiddlearth.tumblr.com/post/57884455906/most-powerful-in-middle-earth
By the way, we can say that according to poll and our opinions, the most powerful being in the Middle-Earth is Dark Lord Sauron.
Concerning second place - (according the first and second poll) - I have no problem give that place to Galadriel and Gandalf the White together, as beings equal in power.
Third, four or fifth place is irrelevant, because both polls were primarily about three persons mentioned above.
Sir_Stig:
--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 12. Mai 2015, 23:27 ---
--- Zitat von: Adamin am 12. Mai 2015, 17:39 ---Well, I'd say that there is an easy logical way to answer the question.
--- Ende Zitat ---
It would be a lot easier if we could resolve all the 'mysteries' of Tolkien's lore with logical statements, but I don't think it would be really possible, because all Tolkien's universe is a 'Mystery' (even due to its unfinished and 'tale-told' nature), and that's why it's wonderful :)
And that's why we can make a lot of speculations, and, of course, everyone is entitled to its own opinion :)
The word 'Power' has various meanings in Tolkien's works, not necessarily connected to destruction or domination (even if it often refers to that aspect), but also to Beauty, Light and, most importantly, Wisdom; and I think this is exactly one of the main messages that Tolkien 'wants' to give us.
Victory and help often come, infact, from the apparently 'weakest', most unexpected and humblest ones, as Gandalf tells the White Council during the Watchful Peace; and Victory came, in fact, by Frodo, and it was specifically his destiny and task, when the mightiest ones failed.
Probably we can consider Galadriel and Sauron (without the One Ring) as two 'equal' rivals in Middle Earth, like Haldir says, Light and Darkness that clash together, even though they can't win each other; they are invincible in their own realms (Galadriel in the Golden Woods and Sauron in Mordor), but they don't have the power to give the 'final assault', for deep, and very long to write XD, reasons concerning the nature of their own existence and the nature of Arda.
This is how I personally view things :)
Remember that, as I wrote in my previous comments, the immense powers of Galadriel gradually increased in time, during her more-than-7000-year-old permanence in Middle Earth, and for the entire Third Age (before the War of the Ring and the final manifestation of Sauron in Mordor and the gathering of all his evil forces) she was at her highest level ever 8-)
Sauron took more than 3000 years to recollect a small part of his powers.
If we use 'your' initial reasoning, Sauron (without the One Ring) could have immediately defeated everyone without great difficulties, while we know for sure that he has always understood the real threat of Men and Galadriel (as Tolkien states) could have never been overcome in her own realm without the One Ring.
You see, pure logic doesn't clearly belong to Tolkien's lore :)
--- Ende Zitat ---
Can I just point out that in all of Tolkien's writings he says that the elves have diminished greatly from the levels of power they possessed when they left Valinor? While her magic may have stayed at the same level because of her ring, I doubt she would have been able to best Melian-era Galadriel, and I don't think she could have done anything against Smaug or Sauron in a straight up fight. Her will enables her to hold her own against a ringless Sauron, but I think it is pretty clear that Sauron with the ring would wipe the floor with her, and if Smaug chose to attack Lorien there would be little she could do to actually harm him.
As far as Gandalf vs Galadriel, he has seen her in her "mermaid" form, so I would think that he is talking about her in absolute power terms, not physical terms. From that we can deduce that he thinks he is on a different level from her as Gandalf the White.
I still contend that a ringless Sauron gets walked by Smaug, much like any other entity in middle earth would be.
Walküre:
--- Zitat von: Sir_Stig am 22. Jul 2015, 22:44 ---
Can I just point out that in all of Tolkien's writings he says that the elves have diminished greatly from the levels of power they possessed when they left Valinor? While her magic may have stayed at the same level because of her ring, I doubt she would have been able to best Melian-era Galadriel, and I don't think she could have done anything against Smaug or Sauron in a straight up fight. Her will enables her to hold her own against a ringless Sauron, but I think it is pretty clear that Sauron with the ring would wipe the floor with her, and if Smaug chose to attack Lorien there would be little she could do to actually harm him.
As far as Gandalf vs Galadriel, he has seen her in her "mermaid" form, so I would think that he is talking about her in absolute power terms, not physical terms. From that we can deduce that he thinks he is on a different level from her as Gandalf the White.
I still contend that a ringless Sauron gets walked by Smaug, much like any other entity in middle earth would be.
--- Ende Zitat ---
It's an obvious fact that she couldn't stand a chance against Sauron with the One Ring on his finger, and I never questioned it, since I kept on mentioning it.
The statement of Tolkien about the once formidable powers of the Eldar is very general, and doesn't specifically refer to Galadriel; the point is that, at the time of the War of the Ring, there are very few Eldar still remaining in the World, and the Woodland Elves are not capable at all of containing all the evil forces of Mordor, not to say winning them.
The statement also refers to the ineluctable fate of decay of all the Elves, both if the One Ring were regained by Sauron or destroyed.
But Galadriel is an exception (even though she still has to face the Elves' fate), the only trace left in Middle Earth of Valinor and its Spendour, and her memories of the Elder Days were really vivid in her mind; her powers increased along her 3-Age permanence in Middle Earth, and, at the time of the War of the Ring, were completely untainted (also due to her fundamental usage of Nenya), until she decided to resist the temptation of the Ultimate Power and accept her obligated return to Aman.
But another significant fact is that she was considered almost a goddess, in the late Third Age, not only for her incredible status and Might (greatly superior to the one of an ordinary Elf) or because she became a superhero in more than 7000 years, but also because the World had become so dark and disenchanted in the Third Age, that a being like Galadriel rightly appeared as over worldly, a legend even for the less wise Elves of Mirkwood.
I think that there is no difference between the magical aspect and the physical one of the powers of Galadriel, since they are 'integrated' and mixed with her extremely vast Knowledge, insightful Sight of Minds and Beauty; the definition of Power, in the Tolkien's Universe, is, especially for the Elves, very comprehensive and wholistic.
Sir_Stig:
--- Zitat ---I think that there is no difference between the magical aspect and the physical one of the powers of Galadriel, since they are 'integrated' and mixed with her extremely vast Knowledge, insightful Sight of Minds and Beauty; the definition of Power, in the Tolkien's Universe, is, especially for the Elves, very comprehensive and wholistic.
--- Ende Zitat ---
This supports the fact that Gandalf the white is more powerful then, as Gimli has seen her and therefore she would have been referenced with Sauron as beings more dangerous.
As far as Galadriel not diminishing: While her sphere of influence increased in the third age, there is nothing that says her power increased. The ring allows her to channel her power without losing it (we see this happen to Melkor, as overtime he pours himself into middle earth and greatly diminishes from the height of his power.)
This is the entire idea behind the rings of power: Then Sauron went a step further and actually imbued his own ring with his essence, in an attempt to dominate the other rings.
When we look at depictions of Galadriel it is very important to think about who the historian is: in The Silmarillion it is a translation from elvish by we presume bilbo, so all the stories are from the point of view of elves. When we look at The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings it is from the point of view of a hobbit, Bilbo and Frodo respectively. In The Silmarillion we see a more petty view of Galadriel, where she is not seen as a big player in the 1st age, while in The Lord of the Rings she is written as basically a goddess, which to a hobbit I'm sure is quite a logical take away. I'm not trying to discredit Galadriel of her due praise, but there is no way she can take on a Balrog or winged dragon in anything other than a battle of wills. As soon as the fight gets physical she is doomed, everytime we see a Balrog killed it also involves the person fighting it (be they mighty elf warrior, or even maia in the case of Gandalf) dying.
if this is a fight to the death than the order would be as follows:
Glorfindel beats Balrog (possibly dies again) and maybe the other elves and Saruman
Elrond beats Balrog (probably dies while doing so) and maybe the other elves and Saruman
Galadriel beats Balrog (probably dies while doing so), possibly the Witchking, and maybe other elves and Saruman
Saruman possibly beats all elves and Balrog, but the odds are he gets walked
Balrog is on mostly equal footing with all elves, probably takes out Witchking and Saruman
Smaug walks everyone up to Balrog, who he probably beats as well. Gandalf *might* be able to do something, but that's the only person with a chance
Gandalf takes everyone except for Smaug and the Witchking.
Adamin:
What?
The idea behind the three Elven Rings was to stop the deminishing of the elves.
--- Zitat ---Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, [...] and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.
--- Ende Zitat ---
- The Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE -
Galadriel wasn't (only) channeling her own powers through Nenya, she used it to stop the flows of time in Lórien and create her own Mini Doriath/Valinor in Middle-earth. Why were there no Mallorn Trees in Middle-earth except in Lórien? Because Galadriel created them!
--- Zitat ---I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
--- Ende Zitat ---
- The Fellowship of the Ring: Chapter 8 Farewell to Lorien -
The Balrog comparison is also quite wobbly. The battle between Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria was mainly a battle of wills. There was only one exchange of sword blows. Other than that:
--- Zitat ---"The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew.
--- Ende Zitat ---
- The Fellowship of the Ring: Chapter 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm -
Also, the defeat of a Balrog was mainly marked by self-sacrifice, not a display of general power. Gandalf/Glorfindel sacrificed themselves without any selfish thought to save Frodo/Eärendil. That's a much stronger motive in their deed than their personal power. So I wouldn't say you can draw a simple power-hierarchy from that.
How on earth would Saruman be able to defeat a Balrog??
--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 23. Jul 2015, 10:58 ---[...] were completely untainted (also due to her fundamental usage of Nenya), until she decided to resist the temptation of the Ultimate Power and accept her obligated return to Aman.
--- Ende Zitat ---
What?
So your saying Galadriel newer wanted to return to Aman and just did so, because it was obliged to, because "every elf was doing it"? I don't think so. It looks to me that Galadriel knew she was fighting an uphill battle. She had to know that Lórien was only the heart of elvendom because of Nenya, and that Nenya (as well as Lórien) would fade after the destruction of the One Ring.
Again in her own song Galadriel raises the question if she would be accepted in the west again (because of the curse of the Noldor), as if she was thinking very hard about it:
--- Zitat ---O Lorien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.
O Lorien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
--- Ende Zitat ---
- The Fellowship of the Ring: Chapter 8 Farewell to Lorien -
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