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Autor Thema: Outpost  (Gelesen 37274 mal)

Adamin

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #75 am: 14. Jan 2016, 10:44 »
Mh, I read through the last couple ideas. As I'm not one of the balance-pros, I can only comment on the overall idea.

Maybe make the camp that you have at the tenth power and replace this power with something else that show the power of rohan it could be : Golden age; all units are directly at level 5 or all heroes at level 10 or both of them
But the Summon-Camp is such a unique idea, it would be a loss to turn it into a regular building.  :o

Grima, in my opinion, doesn't deserve a larger part in Rohan's warfare:
I agree to that. Grima should stay a side note of Theodens development, nothing more. In the books he was rather working on weakening Rohans army, so we're already stretching his abilities/involvement.

Personally I think a new outpost building does not have to be another village or rally point (speaking strictly about the visuals). Those aspects of Rohan are already represented really well inside the core faction.
I think it would be more interesting to introduce a new style-/ and gameplay-aspect to Rohan via a new Subfaction. So something more similar to Loriens Mirkwood, Mordors DolGuldur, or EredLuins Laketown. Something that that plays and looks different, yet feels like the core faction and adds to it.

And yeah, finding something like this for Rohan is hard, I know. ^^'
It would need to be something that is not from the basic Rohan we know from the movies, but it has to fit to their style, AND has to make some sense backgroundwise (so no Galadhrim baracks or Druedain camp).

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #76 am: 14. Jan 2016, 17:57 »
Well, lets look at the history of Rohan here. Who have been allies, for however a short period of time, with Rohan? The Druedain(in the book), the Galadhrim(in the film), Gondor, and the Ents. Additionally, you can kind of count Grima and his traitors as a sub-faction. So if it HAS to be a sub-faction system, and the Ents, Lorien and the Druedain are ALL out of the running, that leaves us only with Gondor and the Traitors. I have already posted a traitor camp idea, which I still think has merit, so lets move on to something completely different and new.

Name of outpost: Gondor Military Outpost. Cost: 1000 resources. The outpost would be garrisonable by archers, and come with an arrow tower by default. It would generate a medium amount of resources, something like 60-80. It can recruit 3 new Gondor themed units, comes with an active ability, 2 upgrades for the outpost, and a final upgrade for the troops trained from the outpost.

Outpost Active Ability: Strongpoint of Gondor. Heals nearby friendly units passively and increases the armor of the outpost and all nearby friendly units by 100% for 1 minute, takes 3 minutes to recharge.

Troop Upgrade: Military Assistance Permit, cost 1000. The Steward gives the men stationed at the outpost full permission to serve the Lord of the Riddermark and aid his armies in combat, unlocking heavy battle armor for all 3 units from the Gondor Military Outpost, increasing their armor and health by 50% each, stacking with Heavy Armor for the Wardens and Messengers. The upgrade on the units would cost 250 per unit.

Outpost Upgrade 1: Outpost Garrison, cost 500. 10 Gondor Wardens patrol around the outpost at all times using the Slave System, and defend it against any enemies. This also increases the health of the outpost by 5o%

Outpost Upgrade 2: Vault, cost 800. A vault for information and personal belongings, as well as funds sent by Gondor, is installed in the outpost. Increases the income of the outpost to 150.

Gondor Messengers: Cost 100. Extremely light cavalry. They would serve for Rohan entirely as a scouting battalion who is poor in combat until upgraded. Must be upgraded with Military Assistance Permit to unlock the other 3 standard upgrades, giving the cavalry similar strength in late game to standard Rohirrim.
Formation: Pointman. This formation would place 1 man several feet in front and the rest in a line behind him, and increase the vision radius of the unit by 100% at the cost of 50% armor. These cavalry serve as rapid scouts and messengers, to take messages of utmost importance and urgency to the Steward of Gondor. The man who delivers the Red Arrow to Théoden is one of these messengers.

Gondor Wardens: Cost, 400. Heavy Infantry unit that can go into a shieldwall formation and be upgraded with Banner Carriers, Heavy Armor, Forged Blades and Military Assistance Permit. These men are sent to a small outpost or embassy of Gondor in Rohan's lands to man it against any attack. They serve as more leisurely messengers to inform the Steward of Gondor of any developments in Rohan that are of less importance and do not require the Messengers to deliver the news. They would fill Rohans current gap of heavy infantry.

Gondor Skirmishers: Cost, 500. Light archers who stealth in trees. Can be upgraded with Banner Carriers, Fire Arrows and Military Assistance Permit.
Passive Ability: Surprise Attack. When the archers are concealed by trees and break their cover to fire on the enemy, they do triple damage with their first attack.
These are the scouts and spies of Gondor, who often travel through Rohan to gather news of faraway lands for the Steward of Gondor. They would function as a glass-cannon style unit, dealing very heavy ranged damage while being very vulnerable to all forms of damage themselves. This is to prevent Rohan becoming an archer faction, as they would require careful micromanagement.

That's the best idea that I can come up with for a Gondor type outpost designed to help the Rohirrim. After all, we know that Gondor has marched to Rohans aid just as much as Rohan has ridden to Gondors aid. Its a mutually beneficial arrangement, most excellent in Middle Earth. I think this outpost would work quite well as a recruitment point for some new units to spice up Rohans gameplay, give them some scouting options, and finally generate a bit more cash to help with the economy. Finally, due to the cost of the units and the inability to discount them, combined with the cost of the upgrades and the fact they MUST be recruited from an outpost, requiring map control, I don't believe this will break the gameplay or turn Rohan into an Infantry faction. This is just to fill some holes in their gameplay.
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Jan 2016, 18:00 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #77 am: 14. Jan 2016, 18:11 »
I do agree with Adamin.  A village or gathering post is has representation in the faction already, so I'd rather see something else.

I've been looking up lore about Rohan to see if I could find anything, but I didn't really find anything. 

The only idea I have from researching is maybe the outpost should have more to do with the East-Mark or Eastfold.  Like an Aldburg outpost or something. 

I do like KryPtiks idea, though I don't know if Gondor deserves a outpost in another faction :P  Plus, Gondor units already in Arnor as a summon, so i don't think they should be in every Men faction.

However, I will support it if there aren't any better idea.  Rohan deserves some sort of new outpost.  :)

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #78 am: 14. Jan 2016, 18:16 »
I could come up with ideas for days from the different marks of Rohan, but what I thought Adamin meant was that it has to be a different facton entirely, not anything from within Rohan. We have already seen several ideas related around Rohan, for example the Big Village, the Outlaw Camp, and more recently my idea for a Garrison of the Westfold.

I think that Rohan should be one of the most important factions to have a tie-in with Gondor, they are Gondors strongest ally in the Third Age.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #79 am: 14. Jan 2016, 18:24 »
Well I always took the subfaction outposts to be factions or parts of faction that are too small to be actual faction, but would get representation through the outpost.  The only faction who kinda breaks this rule is Arnor, but their Imladris Outpost is supposed to be back during when Arnor existed, which is why Glorfindel is a hero from it.

I could be wrong though.  Just the way I see it.

Adamin

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #80 am: 14. Jan 2016, 19:37 »
but what I thought Adamin meant was that it has to be a different facton entirely, not anything from within Rohan.

Not necessarily. Dol Amroth and the other Fiefdoms are also quite elegantly implemented in Gondor imho, and they are most certainly from within Gondor itself.

Gondor and Rohan were definetly tight allies, though I thought that this friendship was fading before the War of the Ring, wasn't it? It could be that I'm thinking too much of the movies depiction right now. How exactly was it in the books?

Isn't there anybody here who recently read the Two Towers? ^^
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Jan 2016, 19:43 von Adamin »

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #81 am: 14. Jan 2016, 19:41 »
Well, one could argue that Dol Amroth is really a faction all its own, because its a princedom, and the fiefdoms aren't implemented with an outpost, their on a settlement. What do you think of my Gondor Military Outpost idea?
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Walküre

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #82 am: 14. Jan 2016, 19:58 »
Gondor and Rohan were definetly tight allies, though I thought that this friendship was fading before the War of the Ring, wasn't it? It could be that I'm thinking too much of the movies depiction right now. How exactly was it in the books?

Isn't there anybody here who recently read the Two Towers? ^^


I didn't recently read the Two Towers, but I guess that I agree with you.
Rohan had gradually started to isolate itself since the beginning of the influence of Saruman in these lands, at the point that this process led eventually Rohan to be more and more detached from every boundary of alliance which it was involved into (being also a strategy of Saruman intended to weaken the realm itself to prepare its dismantlement via deceiving actions or violence).

So, I think that we can clearly assume that Rohan 'froze' pretty much all its friendly ties in that period.
And, as Gandalf says, the courtesy and manners towards strangers in general became definitely bitter.

I remember that Gríma insults also Galadriel at the presence of Gandalf (saying that she weaves deceiving webs in the depths of the Golden Wood), and probably he had not very gentle words as well for everyone who could have hindered Saruman's plans (Gondor included)  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 14. Jan 2016, 20:35 von DieWalküre »

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #83 am: 14. Jan 2016, 20:32 »
I'm currently reading the Two Towers, and yes your right, while Théoden was Corrupted the bonds of alliance were weakened. However, the minute that Théoden had been cured by Gandalf, he immediately began to set plans in motion to restore his allegiance. Besides, the idea isn't just for the time of the War of the Ring, but rather for earlier as well, throughout the Third Age.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

ringbearer

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #84 am: 15. Jan 2016, 21:44 »
I have to say that the more i think about Elite's suggestion with gondor the more i am convinced that it would not be a bad idea at all. Gondor outpost could have a prerequisite - curred theoden-  if you want it kosher. I am all for this concept if there is a will to something gondorish in rohan. :)

helloa2134

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #85 am: 16. Jan 2016, 04:50 »
     Elite, let me just say firstly that I really like your Gondor outpost idea.  I think the increased income upgrade is a great way to bolster Rohan's weaker economy.  Generally I think the idea is fantastic for a rough outline which can be further improved through some more discussion.  Just some thoughts/ critiques I had.

     I think Theoden should have to be healed before the outpost can be purchased.  Perhaps the outpost could be built before Theoden is healed but the outpost would have reduced functionality?  This could allow Rohan to gain some quick map control as is Rohan's play style.  This would be possible because it is a cheaper outpost.  I don't know exactly what this reduced functionality would entail, as I haven't given t much thought.  Of course, the simple option would simply be to restrict construction of the outpost until Theoden is healed, which is also a good idea.

     The Gondor Wardens would fulfill a crucial role that Rohan currently lacks.  I was wondering how strong these Wardens would be.  Certainly they should be stronger overall than basic faction infantry just as they should definitely be weaker than Dol Amroth infantry.  However, I would like you to explain more clearly how strong exactly these units are.  What would their armor/health be, and what sort of damage are we talking about?  Would these units be more focused on tanking or dealing damage?

     Skirmishers: While I don't think these units are a bad idea per se, I would prefer the team improve the existing Rohan Spear Throwers, unless of course the team wants to change the role of spear throwers.
 
     Messengers: I may be wrong, as you are a far more experienced player than I, but does Rohan really need a scout unit?  I mean the faction is cavalry heavy and is exceptional at gaining map control. Also, if the outpost can only be created after Theoden is healed, then  these scouts would only appear a few minutes into the game. Again, I could be wrong and would welcome any further explanation.

Just a couple of thoughts I had.  I think this idea really has some merit to it, and I think you did an exceptional job at differentiating this outpost from Gondor proper.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #86 am: 16. Jan 2016, 05:10 »
I don't know enough about specific armor, health and damage values to bring them to a fine point, I would leave that to the team. The wardens would be heavy infantry focused on tanking damage. The idea of the Skirmishers is to give Rohan a heavy damage ranged unit, but make them very weak in health, so that it prevents Rohan from being an archer faction.

Additionally, I did not come up with the idea to make the outpost restricted until Théoden is cured and do not agree with it, that's why I put the scout unit idea in there to begin with, along with the cheap cost of the outpost. Rohan currently completely lacks any scouting capabilities, which is a real hindrance in mid game and late game. Early game you should be rushing the enemy anyways, so scouting doesn't matter so much as it does for other factions then.

Thanks for the interest in the idea :)
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

helloa2134

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #87 am: 16. Jan 2016, 05:26 »
With that being said about skirmishers, what would the main differences be between Rohan's three late game ranged units (Rohirrim archers, spear throwers, and skirmishers).  The team would probably prefer the three units not overlap too extensively. 

I will take your word about Rohan's lack of scouting capabilities, since you are a far more experienced with the game than I.   If the team wants to restrict the functionality of the outpost until after Theoden is healed, (which I am on the fence about now, I dont feel strongly one way or the other) then perhaps messengers can be produced before Theoden is healed whilst restricting certain units or upgrades until later?  Maybe the units could be produced before Theoden's healing while the Military Assistance Permit upgrade and the Vault upgrade would be enabled only after?  Honestly these are all matters for balance testers (like you) and lore buffs. 


Elite KryPtik

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #88 am: 16. Jan 2016, 08:56 »
Well, if anything would need to be restricted until after Théoden is healed, I would want it to be the upgrades.

The whole point of the skirmishers is that they cannot take damage, they die very quickly to any type of damage. They are purely meant as an ambushing, hit and run styled unit that can deal incredibly heavy damage and then run away.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Outpost
« Antwort #89 am: 16. Jan 2016, 19:01 »
I had trouble understanding that post, can you try to clean it up a little bit? The only thing I understood was that you think that Rohan should be weak early game and strong late game(which is ironic, considering that's the exact opposite of their current gameplay) and that you think that the traitor camp should be an early game outpost and the Gondor Military Outpost should be a late game. Now, I would personally not agree about having 2 outposts, but I agree that Rohan needs a stronger late game, theres a whole discussion going about that, so you should join in the appropriate thread. There is definitely a problem with Rohan, that the community is trying to fix.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!