[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings
The Hobbit Trilogy
Walküre:
--- Zitat von: korner am 27. Aug 2015, 00:56 ---because the rotating blades or net would
- cause a huge air resistance
- cause a momentum against direction of move
which simply would lead to slowing down the projectile and make it drop after some metres.
The main thing about all that (for me) is the differences to the Lord of the Rings trilogy. In that movies nearly everything (besides supernatural creatures like Sauron, Gandalf etc.) was "realistic":
- a Mumakil cannot fly without wings
- a troll cannot jump 100 metres high
- someone who falls down a high wall dies
While in the Hobbit movies there are far too much "unrealistic" things (ballista projectiles, suicide trolls, wyrms, nearly every second Legolas move ...) that do not fit to the Middle Earth presented by the LotR trilogy.
My problem is not the action in the Hobbit. My problem is the action in the Hobbit compared to the one in the LotR. It just does not fit together, and it´s still the same world.
--- Ende Zitat ---
They are all interesting facts, but this is not a scientific essay.
How do you know, precisely, what kind of Art or unknown Techniques the Dwarves used in the creation of these machines?
The Dwarves are not Elves nor Ainur, but they aren't also Humans.
Most of their Arts are unknown and willingly kept hidden by them.
I really think that a scientific approach like yours, to this kind of topics, is certainly the worst and most counterproductive that one could ever have.
It just basically ruins the whole atmosphere and spirit of this FICTIONAL World.
--- Zitat von: Gnomi am 27. Aug 2015, 01:05 ---There is a lot of physics in Lotr.
Tolkien always tried to make middleearth realistic. It's the same as in old sages:
You have all of the things you knew from our world... and then you just add something like magic and dragons.
Those weapons were always created by gods or similar creatures. (as written above)
So it would be 'more' okay for me if Saruman would have invented them, but not the dwarves. Again: I have written above why. :P
That has nothing to do with "thinking to much", just with a different approach to the movies. Everyone has a different taste and looks at different points. I personally like many of the non-fighting-scenes, but most of the fighting-scenes are really... irritating, unrealistic and boring for me. Other people love those scenes.^^
--- Ende Zitat ---
Gnomi, I saw just now your reply.
I don't want to write unnecessary walls of text, but I will just say that I respect your opinions, but there is definitely something more than adding some Dragons here and there in a semi-fictional World :)
Magic influences everything, one way or the other, in the Tolkien's World; and it has always been a part of the foundations of Arda since the Beginning.
Also, Tolkien often reminds us that, instead of pure 'Magic' (out of nowhere), the imaginary and 'magical' things that we read about in Middle Earth (about Ainur, Elves or Dwarves and specific Humans) should be better considered as specific and proper 'Arts' of each race of Arda (Ainur included), with which the different races influence the surrounding environment.
This is a pivotal topic, as Galadriel (Tolkien) tells us in FOTR, speaking about the 'Art' of the Elves, and considering the 'human' term 'Magic' as a negative and wrong word.
Concerning the creation and mechanism of those ballistas, I think I already replied above to korner, expressing what I truly think :)
Also, don't forget that the Dwarves have been present in Middle Earth since the Years of the Trees, and that they thus overall possess a superior, ancient and hidden Knowledge about the general crafting of things; a Knowledge that the Humans can easily regard as 'magical', as they do with most of the Elven Arts.
We are still talking about the Third Age, a dark and disenchanted Age, in which, though, Magic is still generally present in the World (obviously in a minor scale); the Fourth Age is the real 'dividing' Age, which definitely marks the ineluctable 'Transformation' of the World.
It's obvious that the general physical laws exist and have their importance in Arda, but I would say that they are 'integrated' in this fictional World in a naturally different way.
Talking thus about atoms, prehistoric creatures or strict mechanic laws is really counterproductive, and it might divert you from the real Essence of this extraordinary Legendarium :)
This is the crucial fact: no race really thinks to have pure Magic in its hands.
Every race considers and sees its Arts as a natural display and modification of the World according to its own proper and natural qualities.
As the Valar always remembered the Men of Númenor that the Immortal Lands are not immortal by themselves, but they were made so by the Immortal Beings who dwell there ;)
--- Zitat von: Gnomi am 27. Aug 2015, 01:17 ---Are you sure that they are the best blacksmiths? :P
What about the elves of the first age?
--- Ende Zitat ---
I totally agree with you.
One of their most beautiful 'Jewels' (speaking about the Noldor of Aman in general) is the main theme of my signature :P
LordDainIronfoot:
I think too much real.world science is not needed I meam too much!We can talk about.possible cutings in tbs Ballista Arrows and air currents and aerodynamic but it is not so Middle Earth Style! :-)
It is true that the Dwarves do not have magic of the magnitude of Galadriel and the Elves ,but as Walkure said there are many things about the Dwarven technology and magic ,we do not know even their real names !Bu lt I think that Dwarves posses small magics which can enchant objects those are not so strong and mighty magic but rather Dwarvish style help a little their great inventions ,Magics like uased to enchant other objects like Moria Gate so I think it is quite possible to use similar small enchant on other of their made objects! :-)
Gnomi:
@ CragLord:
I agree with you. It always depends on the point of view. I don't want to say that mine is the only right one, as I'm not Tolkien, so I can't be 100% sure what's correct. I'm just trying to not only understand the books, but also tolkien's art of making the story.^^
--- Zitat ---no but the elves of the first age dose not exist anymore some of them are alive but they are not blacksmiths of meddle earth so yes third age dwarfs are the best
--- Ende Zitat ---
One small thing:
Elrond: alive in first age
Galadriel: alive in first age
Celeborn: alive in first age
Glorfindel: alive in first age
Now tell me again how all elves of the first age doesn't exist anymore. :P
The thing I wanted to say is that there has been better smiths than the ones at the end of the third age. The dwarves were some of the best at that point, but if you look at the whole story, there were better smiths. And you have to look at everything if you talk about this, because if the dwarves of the iron hills were able to construct such a thing, than all the other ones would also had the possibilities to create such things. And as I said: Magic. Those things would probably only work with magic and we all know that the dwarves weren't able to make weapons with magic. (they were sometimes really frustrated, because they were better smiths than the elves, but weren't able to make magical weapons like the elves)
Therefore there are always differences.^^
@ DieWalküre:
If you compare middleearth with the edda you'll see many similarities. Of course there is more than just adding dragons, I agree with you, but it's also much less than deleting phyisical and well known rules.^^
As I have written above there is still a difference between things which look magical and things which are really magical. The dwarves were really good - but they used solid and not magical arts. Everyone with enough talent could have learned it - but the dwarves just had more talent than humen and most elves. Therefore it seemed magical.
But the elves were able to use some kind of magic (glowing blades when orcs are near) and those things weren't learnable. The dwarves weren't able to such things, simple because they weren't elves. But very talented elves are able to learn all of the dwarven techniques. (but there were way more talented dwarves than elves^^)
@ LordDainIronfoot:
The door of Moria was built by elves and dwarves together.^^
LordDainIronfoot:
I know that it is made by Dwarves and Elves but it is nowhere said that Dwarves didnt use a little magic there! :-)
It is a bit of speculation but as I love to.say we never what Tolkien could have done or.change! And little speculation is not.bad.when within limitations not some wild.dream so my point is that many things we do know for sure doesn't mean that they are not possible and a little speculation is not so out of place! :-)
Der Dunkle König:
I have a question: Can somebody explain to me how these ballistas work?
The bolts which are fired by them rotate, so they must either have started rotating after they were fired, which is impossible, because after firing there is no longer a connection between bolt and ground. Or they started rotating while they were on the ballistas, before they were fired, which is impossible too, because when I look at these machines there is no place for these rotating anti-arrow-shields to be active while they lie there.
Edit: I have lookes at the picture posted by Dain again, and you can see that some of the bolts are already fired there, and they don't have the anti-arrow-things. So the movie-makers have chosen alternative one and the anti-arrow-bolts are able to unfold themselves magically.
And I definitly agree with Gnomi about that, I don't believe that dwarves are capable of such a kind of magic.
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