The Hobbit Trilogy

[Fredius]

Don't know about you guys but I think the Hobbit is far superior with it's orcs than LOTR. Instead of "just" killing machines they are actually killing machines with a culture. They speak their own language (even speaking at all is very rare for an orc in LOTR ) and they have their own goals and hierarchical structure. I really loved that in the trilogy.

[Walküre]

I agree, at a certain extent.

The usage of Black Speech was indeed a step forward in the representation of the Orcs; nothing to say about it.
Just, one could also say that the same Orcs are better represented in LOTR, graphically speaking, being also much more frightening in their very appearance.
For example, I was a bit shocked, as a child, when I had seen for the first time the Goblins of Moria in FOTR, as if they were a seriously dreadful threat 
Nevertheless, PJ was totally right in implementing their true language.

If you want, you could also start a debate in the LOTR thread about the general representation and display of Orcs on the big screen.
We could start a war between these two threads, the Hobbit and LOTR 

Besides, I really want you active there as well, we need you 

#WeNeedFredius 

[Melkor Bauglir]

Objection to this statement!
I agree that there are new orcish aspects in the Hobbit movies that weren't in the LotR-trilogy. However first of all: Do orcs even need this? My point is that orcs are the evil forces' henchmen and they make great side-villains, but from a storytelling aspect, they are incredible dull as primary antagonists -the thing is they are little more than tools for Sauron and others, I would argue they were never meant to play a real villain role and simply not able to fullfill this role. So: Yes, you are right. But I don't see the appeal of orc based primary-villains, therefore it isn't a necessary advance in my opinion.
And yeah (let the hate flow through me^^): I found this black speech annoying as hell! First of all, I'd like to understand what characters are saying. Second of all, untill Azog started speaking black speechish only Sauron ever used it and it was massively cooler that way. Thirdly the Black Speech isn't really the global language of evil things, it's something Sauron developt, but the orcs never used this as a primary language, especially not the Misty Mountain orcs, as far as I know. And lastly, being the most glaring problem, I don't see how this Black Speech added anything to the movie or Azogs character. He just kind of does it and it isn't an improvement for the audiance. So why do it in the first place if it makes himself constantly incomprehensible.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: And about the graphical implementation: I can hardly agree more with DieWalküre.

[RiderOfRohan]

Objection to this statement!
I agree that there are new orcish aspects in the Hobbit movies that weren't in the LotR-trilogy. However first of all: Do orcs even need this? My point is that orcs are the evil forces' henchmen and they make great side-villains, but from a storytelling aspect, they are incredible dull as primary antagonists -the thing is they are little more than tools for Sauron and others, I would argue they were never meant to play a real villain role and simply not able to fullfill this role. So: Yes, you are right. But I don't see the appeal of orc based primary-villains, therefore it isn't a necessary advance in my opinion.
And yeah (let the hate flow through me^^): I found this black speech annoying as hell! First of all, I'd like to understand what characters are saying. Second of all, untill Azog started speaking black speechish only Sauron ever used it and it was massively cooler that way. Thirdly the Black Speech isn't really the global language of evil things, it's something Sauron developt, but the orcs never used this as a primary language, especially not the Misty Mountain orcs, as far as I know. And lastly, being the most glaring problem, I don't see how this Black Speech added anything to the movie or Azogs character. He just kind of does it and it isn't an improvement for the audiance. So why do it in the first place if it makes himself constantly incomprehensible.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: And about the graphical implementation: I can hardly agree more with DieWalküre.

Sauron created the Black Speech to be the unifying language of all the servants of Mordor, Many Orkish dialects had adopted words from the Black Speech so it would make sense to me to have it even for the broken orc tribes in the north.
Pure Black Speech was spoken by Sauron, the Olog-hai, and the Nazgul, so it would make sense that Azog, a high ranking orc leader would be speaking it, especially since in the movie he was seen speaking to the necromancer.

[ThorinsNemesis]

Don't know about you guys but I think the Hobbit is far superior with it's orcs than LOTR. Instead of "just" killing machines they are actually killing machines with a culture. They speak their own language (even speaking at all is very rare for an orc in LOTR ) and they have their own goals and hierarchical structure. I really loved that in the trilogy.

I absolutely and completely agree with you. Especially the inclusion of Black Speech for the orcs was a very interesting addition; and the Orcs' culture, especially the culture and outside architecture of Gundabad imo were really impressive.
While in LOTR the Goblins and Orcs were also cool, they spoke English instead, and weren't so 'developed'  as they are in the Hobbit; and, in my opinion the designs and armors of the orcs in the Hobbit movies was much more cool and impressive, I actually found the Orcs in the Hobbit a bit more scary/imposing than the ones in LOTR.

[RiderOfRohan]

Don't know about you guys but I think the Hobbit is far superior with it's orcs than LOTR. Instead of "just" killing machines they are actually killing machines with a culture. They speak their own language (even speaking at all is very rare for an orc in LOTR ) and they have their own goals and hierarchical structure. I really loved that in the trilogy.

I absolutely and completely agree with you. Especially the inclusion of Black Speech for the orcs was a very interesting addition; and the Orcs' culture, especially the culture and outside architecture of Gundabad imo were really impressive.
While in LOTR the Goblins and Orcs were also cool, they spoke English instead, and weren't so 'developed'  as they are in the Hobbit; and, in my opinion the designs and armors of the orcs in the Hobbit movies was much more cool and impressive, I actually found the Orcs in the Hobbit a bit more scary/imposing than the ones in LOTR.

I disagree on the Hobbit orcs being cooler than the LOTR ones, but it's just personal preference. But I do agree that the Hobbit orcs were more distinctive than the ones in LOTR.

[Walküre]

Objection to this statement!
I agree that there are new orcish aspects in the Hobbit movies that weren't in the LotR-trilogy. However first of all: Do orcs even need this? My point is that orcs are the evil forces' henchmen and they make great side-villains, but from a storytelling aspect, they are incredible dull as primary antagonists -the thing is they are little more than tools for Sauron and others, I would argue they were never meant to play a real villain role and simply not able to fullfill this role. So: Yes, you are right. But I don't see the appeal of orc based primary-villains, therefore it isn't a necessary advance in my opinion.
And yeah (let the hate flow through me^^): I found this black speech annoying as hell! First of all, I'd like to understand what characters are saying. Second of all, untill Azog started speaking black speechish only Sauron ever used it and it was massively cooler that way. Thirdly the Black Speech isn't really the global language of evil things, it's something Sauron developt, but the orcs never used this as a primary language, especially not the Misty Mountain orcs, as far as I know. And lastly, being the most glaring problem, I don't see how this Black Speech added anything to the movie or Azogs character. He just kind of does it and it isn't an improvement for the audiance. So why do it in the first place if it makes himself constantly incomprehensible.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: And about the graphical implementation: I can hardly agree more with DieWalküre.

I firmly disagree with you, Melkor, about the Black Speech 

What could, more than a language, express the specific traits of a culture?
And, since never have languages been without reason or superficial additions in Tolkien's production, languages themselves are a precious symbol of each race's nature, in my opinion; from the solemnity of Quenya, to the repulsive and 'heavy' sound of Black Speech.
There is always a logic.

Speaking about the films, the intention was truly showing that we would have approached to something different from our common 'human perspective'; just like Elvish is beautifully used in LOTR to give anything related to it a deeper and sacred essence and atmosphere.

Therefore, it could be seen as one of the very few aspects of the Hobbit trilogy that we shouldn't be afraid to consider superior to other ones of the previous trilogy 

[Fredius]

Heheh sorry my friends I'm pretty busy right now so I can't be as much online as I would like .

First of all, some Orcs in the Hobbit are my favorite in appearance, and are imo better than in LOTR. However, characters like Bolg look far worse than I've ever seen in both trilogies. Never liked his appearance. The Dol Guldur Orcs are my favorite orc army because of the awesome armor they have, and I've never seen a better looking Orc in both trilogies than armored Azog. Though I wish they used this concept for his general appearance instead:



The black language sounds great to me, it indeed fleshes out the culture of the Orcs like Walk said. Thorins Nemesis you took the words out of my mind: The orcs in the LOTR arent so well developed as in the Hobbit. Melkor, even if Orcs are just tools to the evil forces, they are still living beings, and not just meat bags. The Hobbit presented us that even these tools have their own minds and agenda. And the Black Speech doesnt add anything to Azog? It makes him unique and gives him a more frightening appearance. Imagine him speaking English (or German in your case).

[Spacetyrant93]

I do completely agree with Freidus, the Orcs in the Hobbit were well-rounded characters that really gave off the feeling of being actually...well, characters.

While I utterly love how LOTR portrayed Orcs, as said in the Hobbit they are more...I daresay real, and really gave off the feeling of being threatening. Not creepy or scary, gotta give that one to the Moria Orcs, but a threat in the military sense, plus a threat that has a mind of its own; true, they are slaves of the Dark Powers, but a slave's not a robot, having a mind of his own, and they managed to remain a threat enough to unite under an Orc leader and wreack havock without any fallen angel/god directly guiding their hand. Plus, gotta hand it to Azog and Bolg, they were the only villain Orc to last more than one movie XD (there could be Ugluk, who was technically present in FOTR, but was not seen until Two Towers)

About the Black Speech, I believe it does tie things together and indeed fleshes out their culture, and still Fredius is right when he says it makes them more threatening than speaking english/whatever other language. Technically, it makes them completely inhuman (which was the conceptual purpose behind every single evil race movie-wise, harad and rhun included), but to a bad inclination, unlike Elves that are also more than human, but look fair and do speak languages of Men.

Its kind of a different, more daring approach to the matter than LOTR, but I like both of them anyway

[Adamin]

The Hobbit movies actually do differentiate between pure Black Speech and Orcish.

[hoho96]

Alright, here's my opinion about the Black Speech in the movies;
As said before, Sauron created the Black Speech as a language for all evil. However the Orcs (from north of Angmar to the south of Mordor) NEVER really grasped that language. The Orcs had many many different tribes and local languages and dialects which made it impossible for them to commun in something as complicated as the Black Speech (complicated because it's believed to be derived from Elvish). That's why MOST Orcs in the vast armies of Mordor, and caves of the Misty Mountains actually used the common tongue because it presented a simple easy language that has been in use in Middle Earth for thousands of years.

That's canon, and it's not negotiable! 

Anyway, from a movie critic point of view, I'm OK with Azong talking Black Speech. But why would he talk black speech to the dwarves!!! I've never EVER heard that Black Speech is now the new trend and all of middle earth understand it!!
I was really annoyed when Azog speaks to Thorin in Black Speech (or Orcish speech or whatever) and somehow Thorin understands him 
There's some black magic definitely at work...

[lord_ellessar]

Am I alone to dislike the look of Radagast? Same for Bombur, the missing moustache of Balin (less now than before) the to human style of Fili and Kili, the beard of dori and the to little pig of Dain 

[Walküre]

Am I alone to dislike the look of Radagast? Same for Bombur, the missing moustache of Balin (less now than before) the to human style of Fili and Kili, the beard of dori and the to little pig of Dain 

I think the appearance (and general concept) of Radagast, Bombur and Kíli were totally – or mainly – conceived by the writers themselves, specifically to satisfy precise scripting demands (the romance with Tauriel, for example).

Radagast and Bombur were designed also for evident comedy reasons.

[lord_ellessar]

Radagast and Bombur were designed also for evident comedy reasons.

And then, is it à good thing, make comedy éléments for the hobbits ? :/

[Walküre]

Not pure comedy, obviously, but some farcical and grotesque elements here and there, in order (as they said) to adapt better to the child-like tone of the Hobbit (the book).
Even though, in my opinion, they later contradicted themselves by somehow aiming to reach the same majestic tone of LOTR.

Nevertheless, comedy elements are not necessarily negative, since the LOTR trilogy had too some of them during specific and contained moments of the narration.
You can look at the previous pages of this thread, if you are interested; we largely dealt with these grotesque traits in precedent posts