[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings

The Hobbit Trilogy

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RiderOfRohan:

--- Zitat von: ThorinsNemesis am 30. Jan 2016, 00:14 ---
--- Zitat von: Fredius am 29. Jan 2016, 22:51 ---Don't know about you guys but I think the Hobbit is far superior with it's orcs than LOTR. Instead of "just" killing machines they are actually killing machines with a culture. They speak their own language (even speaking at all is very rare for an orc in LOTR xD) and they have their own goals and hierarchical structure. I really loved that in the trilogy.

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I absolutely and completely agree with you. Especially the inclusion of Black Speech for the orcs was a very interesting addition; and the Orcs' culture, especially the culture and outside architecture of Gundabad imo were really impressive.
While in LOTR the Goblins and Orcs were also cool, they spoke English instead, and weren't so 'developed'  as they are in the Hobbit; and, in my opinion the designs and armors of the orcs in the Hobbit movies was much more cool and impressive, I actually found the Orcs in the Hobbit a bit more scary/imposing than the ones in LOTR. :)

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I disagree on the Hobbit orcs being cooler than the LOTR ones, but it's just personal preference. But I do agree that the Hobbit orcs were more distinctive than the ones in LOTR.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am 29. Jan 2016, 23:33 ---Objection to this statement! xD
I agree that there are new orcish aspects in the Hobbit movies that weren't in the LotR-trilogy. However first of all: Do orcs even need this? My point is that orcs are the evil forces' henchmen and they make great side-villains, but from a storytelling aspect, they are incredible dull as primary antagonists -the thing is they are little more than tools for Sauron and others, I would argue they were never meant to play a real villain role and simply not able to fullfill this role. So: Yes, you are right. But I don't see the appeal of orc based primary-villains, therefore it isn't a necessary advance in my opinion. ;)
And yeah (let the hate flow through me^^): I found this black speech annoying as hell! First of all, I'd like to understand what characters are saying. Second of all, untill Azog started speaking black speechish only Sauron ever used it and it was massively cooler that way. Thirdly the Black Speech isn't really the global language of evil things, it's something Sauron developt, but the orcs never used this as a primary language, especially not the Misty Mountain orcs, as far as I know. And lastly, being the most glaring problem, I don't see how this Black Speech added anything to the movie or Azogs character. He just kind of does it and it isn't an improvement for the audiance. So why do it in the first place if it makes himself constantly incomprehensible.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: And about the graphical implementation: I can hardly agree more with DieWalküre.


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I firmly disagree with you, Melkor, about the Black Speech  :)

What could, more than a language, express the specific traits of a culture?
And, since never have languages been without reason or superficial additions in Tolkien's production, languages themselves are a precious symbol of each race's nature, in my opinion; from the solemnity of Quenya, to the repulsive and 'heavy' sound of Black Speech.
There is always a logic.

Speaking about the films, the intention was truly showing that we would have approached to something different from our common 'human perspective'; just like Elvish is beautifully used in LOTR to give anything related to it a deeper and sacred essence and atmosphere.

Therefore, it could be seen as one of the very few aspects of the Hobbit trilogy that we shouldn't be afraid to consider superior to other ones of the previous trilogy  ;)

Fredius:
Heheh sorry my friends I'm pretty busy right now so I can't be as much online as I would like :).

First of all, some Orcs in the Hobbit are my favorite in appearance, and are imo better than in LOTR. However, characters like Bolg look far worse than I've ever seen in both trilogies. Never liked his appearance. The Dol Guldur Orcs are my favorite orc army because of the awesome armor they have, and I've never seen a better looking Orc in both trilogies than armored Azog. Though I wish they used this concept for his general appearance instead:



The black language sounds great to me, it indeed fleshes out the culture of the Orcs like Walk said. Thorins Nemesis you took the words out of my mind: The orcs in the LOTR arent so well developed as in the Hobbit. Melkor, even if Orcs are just tools to the evil forces, they are still living beings, and not just meat bags. The Hobbit presented us that even these tools have their own minds and agenda. And the Black Speech doesnt add anything to Azog? It makes him unique and gives him a more frightening appearance. Imagine him speaking English :D (or German in your case).

Spacetyrant93:
I do completely agree with Freidus, the Orcs in the Hobbit were well-rounded characters that really gave off the feeling of being actually...well, characters.

While I utterly love how LOTR portrayed Orcs, as said in the Hobbit they are more...I daresay real, and really gave off the feeling of being threatening. Not creepy or scary, gotta give that one to the Moria Orcs, but a threat in the military sense, plus a threat that has a mind of its own; true, they are slaves of the Dark Powers, but a slave's not a robot, having a mind of his own, and they managed to remain a threat enough to unite under an Orc leader and wreack havock without any fallen angel/god directly guiding their hand. Plus, gotta hand it to Azog and Bolg, they were the only villain Orc to last more than one movie XD (there could be Ugluk, who was technically present in FOTR, but was not seen until Two Towers)

About the Black Speech, I believe it does tie things together and indeed fleshes out their culture, and still Fredius is right when he says it makes them more threatening than speaking english/whatever other language. Technically, it makes them completely inhuman (which was the conceptual purpose behind every single evil race movie-wise, harad and rhun included), but to a bad inclination, unlike Elves that are also more than human, but look fair and do speak languages of Men.

Its kind of a different, more daring approach to the matter than LOTR, but I like both of them anyway :)

Adamin:
The Hobbit movies actually do differentiate between pure Black Speech and Orcish.

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