[en] The Prancing Pony > The Lord of the Rings
funny, clever, unique stuff
Walküre:
--- Zitat von: CragLord am 15. Aug 2015, 11:59 ---
Melkor was cunning by all means of that word, he knew about her powers and limits.
Yes, Varda indeed was second in power and creator of most powerful&beautiful things (powerful in means of good). And about that Manwë, I presonally NEVER liked him. During reading Silmarilion, I often went to rage, while riding some of situations in which Manwë acted like disoriented child. That guy wasn't worthy of the main position, and always gave the impression of unconfident character.
P.S. Btw, nice analysis Walk. :)
--- Ende Zitat ---
Yes, Manwë often shows enigmatic traits of his behaviour, and can be misinterpreted as a 'powerless' King in its own Kingdom (Arda); Tolkien himself writes that he is a very good and merciful being, almost a stranger in the ruling dynamics of the World, who initially believed in the possibility of a second chance for his elder brother Melkor.
This merciful trait of him led, then, Manwë to make great mistakes and suffer the consequences of his good intentions.
But Tolkien also states that he is the dearest Ainu to Ilúvatar, and that Eru 'chose' him because he had understood deeply its Plan, more than any other Ainur, granting him an almost Universal Knowledge of the Destiny of the Universe (not complete though, since he is not omniscient).
We can thus say that, although his choices were initially really suffered and indirectly caused a lot of terrible consequences, he was right in the 'long term' of the events.
For example, after the Darkening of Valinor, while the Vanyar (and secondarily the Teleri) chose to remain 'loyal' to the Will of the Valar, Fëanor (also deceived by the lies of Melkor) accused Manwë of 'cowardice' for not immediately waging war to Morgoth in Middle Earth, disobeying to the Valar and starting, then, the Exile of the Noldor from the Blessed Realm.
But Manwë eventually was, at the display of the events, right and wise; he didn't move war to Morgoth in Beleriand to not wound another time the World and endanger the recently-awakened and vulnerable Humans.
Fëanor, instead, ended up being completely wrong in his own deep reasons and purposes, since, although the Splendour of the Noldorin Kingdoms of Beleriand, the Noldor never managed anymore to create an eternal and stable realm in Middle Earth, and recreate completely the Splendour of Valinor outside the Pelóri, suffering unspeakable sorrows due to Morgoth first, and then Sauron in the Second and Third Age :)
Anyway, I definitely like Varda more; she is my favourite Vala along with Nienna.
The Elves immediately fell in love with her, when they reached Valinor (**)
CragLord:
--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 15. Aug 2015, 13:40 --- Yes, Manwë often shows enigmatic traits of his behaviour, and can be misinterpreted as a 'powerless' King in its own Kingdom (Arda); Tolkien himself writes that he is a very good and merciful being, almost a stranger in the ruling dynamics of the World, who initially believed in the possibility of a second chance for his elder brother Melkor.
This merciful trait of him led, then, Manwë to make great mistakes and suffer the consequences of his good intentions.
But Tolkien also states that he is the dearest Ainu to Ilúvatar, and that Eru 'chose' him because he had understood deeply its Plan, more than any other Ainur, granting him an almost Universal Knowledge of the Destiny of the Universe (not complete though, since he is not omniscient).
We can thus say that, although his choices were initially really suffered and indirectly caused a lot of terrible consequences, he was right in the 'long term' of the events.
For example, after the Darkening of Valinor, while the Vanyar (and secondarily the Teleri) chose to remain 'loyal' to the Will of the Valar, Fëanor (also deceived by the lies of Melkor) accused Manwë of 'cowardice' for not immediately waging war to Morgoth in Middle Earth, disobeying to the Valar and starting, then, the Exile of the Noldor from the Blessed Realm.
But Manwë eventually was, at the the display of the events, right and wise; he didn't move war to Morgoth in Beleriand to not wound another time the World and endanger the recently-awakened and vulnerable Humans.
Fëanor, instead, ended up being completely wrong in his own deep reasons and purposes, since, although the Splendour of the Noldorin Kingdoms of Beleriand, the Noldor never managed anymore to create an eternal and stable realm in Middle Earth, and recreate completely the Splendour of Valinor outside the Pelóri, suffering unspeakable sorrows due to Morgoth first, and then Sauron in the Second and Third Age :)
Anyway, I definitely like Varda more; she is my favourite Vala along with Nienna.
The Elves immediately fell in love with her, when they reached Valinor (**)
--- Ende Zitat ---
Walk, my friend, I really think you deserve some place in edain team as theoretic consultant or something like that. :)
There is no doubt you understand this matter better then me in general.
I just said Manwë was like he was in my opinion, simply I didn't like him in general, maybe he had some good choices and you explained consequences of his behaviour and thinking, but I simply don't like him in general, don't like that kind of behaviour which I describe like passive, in my opinion too passive. You was right all about him, this is simply my opinion, nothing more.
About Fëanor, it is better to not start here, he deserves new topic. I will just say he is in my opinion the most complex character in Tolkien world. There is no other person which could compare with complexity of his character! He was unique, I don't say he was right or wrong, simply in general he is very complex for analysis. :)
Linhir:
Yes! Brunhild should join ET. xD
Walküre:
--- Zitat von: CragLord am 16. Aug 2015, 03:18 ---
Walk, my friend, I really think you deserve some place in edain team as theoretic consultant or something like that. :)
There is no doubt you understand this matter better then me in general.
There is no other person which could compare with complexity of his character! He was unique, I don't say he was right or wrong, simply in general he is very complex for analysis. :)
--- Ende Zitat ---
--- Zitat von: Linhir am 16. Aug 2015, 12:24 ---Yes! Brunhild should join ET. xD
--- Ende Zitat ---
Thank you all, I'm honoured, but I think you are exaggerating a bit now :D
Crag, I too like very much the character of Fëanor and recognise its fundamental importance, even though I don't agree with him and his actions :)
If you want, you are more than free to start a topic/discussion about Fëanor and his deep purposes on the 'Annals of Aman' thread, since he spent the majority of his life in Aman and conceived his thoughts there.
And, apparently, searching through the Internet, Fëanor's opposition to the Valar is a very 'heated' topic :)
It would be a more appropriate thread ;)
CragLord:
--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 16. Aug 2015, 13:47 --- Thank you all, I'm honoured, but I think you are exaggerating a bit now :D
Crag, I too like very much the character of Fëanor and recognise its fundamental importance, even though I don't agree with him and his actions :)
If you want, you are more than free to start a topic/discussion about Fëanor and his deep purposes on the 'Annals of Aman' thread, since he spent the majority of his life in Aman and conceived his thoughts there.
--- Ende Zitat ---
You are welcome. :) ;)
I also like Fëanor, I will start maybe some day. I really don't remember too much right now, I read book few years ago, and I believe if I read Simrilion again, experience will not be the same, so I say maybe one day I will start discussion at your Annals of Aman thread. :)
--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 16. Aug 2015, 13:47 --- And, apparently, searching through the Internet, Fëanor's opposition to the Valar is a very 'heated' topic. :)
It would be a more appropriate thread ;)
--- Ende Zitat ---
I will also say it was unadvisedly act from Fëanor!
But his self-confidence, determination, his fire-spirit, his acts in general (more bad than good!) are something worthy of very long and precise discussion. :)
He was born for big acts! Sadly there was a lot of bad but big acts after all.
More complex character don't exist in Tolkien world. That is my opinion for now. :)
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