Grond

[Morgul Orc]

I think Grond should be removed as a power and given to Gothmog as an ability. Maybe the power should be replaced with something like summoning Nazguls on Fellbeasts or something like that because I think almost all the people who play as Mordor will select Gorthaur power instead because using few battering rams can do the job easily, not to mention the Trolls, Catapults, Troll Catapult and Mumakils you can use to destroy structures. Also Grond moves very slow.

[Shagrat]

Maybe the power should be replaced with something like summoning Nazguls on Fellbeasts

so you wanna have 18 Nazgul in Total? Witchking + Khamul + 2 others + 5 Nazgul Battalion = 9 Nazgul...

[Morgul Orc]

I thought a little about it but the power will not summon 9 more nazguls, maybe 5 on fell beast because in the battle battle of the pelennor fields there were more than 4 Nazguls on fell beast attacking Minas Tirith. But in the mod only 4 Nazguls can ride on fell beast the other 5 are one battalion on horse. Maybe the power can summon up to 9 Nazgul on fell beast depending on the Nazguls you didn't train. For example if you have 2 Nazguls in play and you used the summon Nazguls power, it will summon 7 Nazguls on fell beast since you only have 2 Nazguls in play this way you'll have a total of 9 until the the time ends. If you already have all nine in play than the power will not summon anything.

What do you think  ?

[DemonhuntR]

Maybe just forget about the nazguls haha, but I do agree with you that Grond is very underwhelming.

[Morgul Orc]

Maybe just forget about the nazguls haha, but I do agree with you that Grond is very underwhelming.

What do you suggest as a power replacement? Because some people suggested summoning trolls and I and other people found that kinda boring.
But since when playing Mordor you can only get 4 Nazguls on fell beast I suggested this power. Because even if you have the 4 Nazgul heroes and for example you didn't train the Nazgul battalion you will have a chance of summoning 5 Nazguls on fell beast. This power can be used specially when you are losing and your Nazgul heroes have died. Because if they all died you can summon 9 of them on fell beast!
Not to mention that there is a small chance that people will build both Dol Guldor and Minas Morgul Fortress to summon Khamul and the Witch-King. The power will also complete the objective "Train all nine Nazguls" which will increase the level of Sauron and the heroes that are bound to him.

[Gnomi]

The Nazgul summon will always be buggy - what happens when you're training a Nazgul and then summon them?
It can always happen that there are more than 9 Nazgul on the battlefield. Additionally the spell punishes people who are training their Nazgul. If you are recruiting Nazgul the spell becomes more and more useless.

It's an interesting idea, but it will probably be very frustating, because you want to play the Nazgul as normal heroes, but you also want to have a strong final spell...

So I don't think that summoning Nazgul would be a good idea.

[LargeExodia]

A passive power giving the black riders the ability to mount fell beasts would probably solve the summoning issue but personally I don't think this is really a good final power

[Gnomi]

And such a thing is not possible. You can't have a flying batallion.
Additionally so many flying creatures are really difficult to balance. Either each nazgul would die within a second or the batallion would cost more than 10.000.
This is also why we decided against 5 more normal Nazgul. There would be too many heroes and there would be no possibility to have a balanced game with all 9 of them on the battlefield. (and if every Nazgul would cost 2000-3000, it would cost more than 18.000 ressources... too much for a normal game)

[Morgul Orc]

Yes it will be frustrating that it will be buggy when you are training and summoning at the same time. But same goes with the Grond if you use the power on a Siege Works that is training or isn't level 3 it will go to waste. That's why we need to think about a new power. I still think though that giving Grond to Gothmog as a high level power makes sense. Because Grond was used on the gate because the gate of Minas Tirith was strong. But most likely people will be using battering rams and trolls etc in the game. 

[Chiska]

I agree that it would be better to replace Grond with something else. It would be cool to givr Grond as a summon power to gothmog (only temporarily though, otherwise too OP) and for a replacement spell yoy might consider this
http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30827.0.html
Its a pretty good idea

[Morgul Orc]

It would be cool to givr Grond as a summon power to gothmog (only temporarily though, otherwise too OP)

Yes that's what I was thinking.. Grond should be summoned temporarily.

and for a replacement spell yoy might consider this
http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30827.0.html
Its a pretty good idea

It's cool but how would it work if it's a Castle/Camp map? It might be great for Castle maps but it would work differentially in Camp maps?

[helloa2134]

It would be cool to givr Grond as a summon power to gothmog (only temporarily though, otherwise too OP)

Wouldn't that give Gothmog a bit too much power though?  I mean, Gothmog is a relatively minor hero in the faction.  If he could just summon Grond in front of a fortress, Mordor could take down the fortifications of the enemy fortress in seconds with almost no way to defend against it.  Grond does enough damage, and has enough health, that Grond can wipe out the gate and perhaps even the main fortress building or a recruitment building in the enemy fortress before Grond could be destroyed.  The alternative, I suppose, would be to make Grond summonable for a ridiculously short amount of time, in which case, what's the point of the power anyway?

[Morgul Orc]

But Gothmog is a assault support Hero and he is not a minor hero. He has leadership, enables catapults to fire corpses so it makes sense that he is given Grond as a summoning power. But it will be a level 10 power most likely. In the movies he's the one who called to bring the Grond the same way he ordered catapults to fire corpses. And yes it will be summoned for a period of time. The reason why some of us want to remove it as a power because people most likely won't choose it over Gorthaur because Mordor already has tons of powerful siege units and at the same time people want the Grond because it's bad ass 

[helloa2134]

A big reservation of mine is that Grond would be summonable. That is, he could be summoned right in front of the enemy's gate.  Not only does that make Grond super powerful, because it would remove Grond's major weakness- his slowness- but it would also give the defender no time to prepare his forces to destroy Grond.

I suppose if the team could find a  way to make Gothmog's ability work like the current spell power it would remove that problem, but it would create new ones.

[Morgul Orc]

he could be summoned right in front of the enemy's gate.

Grond will not be summoned anywhere in the map but near Gothmog's range.

Not only does that make Grond super powerful, because it would remove Grond's major weakness- his slowness- but it would also give the defender no time to prepare his forces to destroy Grond.

I could say the same thing about Isengard's mine power which can be used in the middle of the camp and causes destruction. Remember that Gothmog has to be level 10 to use the ability.

[ziqing]

The problem now is that the walls and gates of Gondor and Rohan are too weak, they  could easily be destroyed by regular siege weapon, that makes giant siege weapon like grond meaningless

[helloa2134]

Grond will not be summoned anywhere in the map but near Gothmog's range.

No I understand what you mean, but if Gothmog is near the enemy fortress assaulting it, then Grond could be summoned right in front of the enemy's fortress.

I could say the same thing about Isengard's mine power which can be used in the middle of the camp and causes destruction. Remember that Gothmog has to be level 10 to use the ability.

To be fair, I think there can be a difference in power between an ultimate-level spell book power, and a hero's level 10 power (Sauron excepted). Also, the mine power is a one-use attack, which can be used to destroy a single, or a pair of buildings.  It is extremely powerful, true, but Grond can move around and cause a great deal more damage.  I suppose the question would be how long can Grond be summoned for? It would have to be summoned long enough to have some effect.

[Morgul Orc]

The problem now is that the walls and gates of Gondor and Rohan are too weak, they  could easily be destroyed by regular siege weapon, that makes giant siege weapon like grond meaningless

Yes. That is why I suggested it as a summon power for Gothmog instead of a level 10 power.

the mine power is a one-use attack, which can be used to destroy a single, or a pair of buildings.

Yes but it can used even if you have no units near the enemy base you can just use the spy power and cause destruction in the middle of your enemy's camp/castle.

Grond can move around and cause a great deal more damage.  I suppose the question would be how long can Grond be summoned for? It would have to be summoned long enough to have some effect.

Grond can also take damage from your enemy's units and Hero's. And we can solve that by lowering it's Health/Defence.

[helloa2134]

Yes but it can used even if you have no units near the enemy base you can just use the spy power and cause destruction in the middle of your enemy's camp/castle.

Well that would be silly   The enemy could just rebuild their buildings, but I digress.

Grond can also take damage from your enemy's units and Hero's. And we can solve that by lowering it's Health/Defence.

I suppose if Grond got a fairly hard nerf, then it could work as a level 10 power for Gothmog.  Again, it would have to have quite a hard nerf, which I think would diminish the badassery of Grond.  I won't say I'm convinced that Grond shouldn't be the second ultimate level spell for Mordor, but for the sake of argumentation I'll accept your points for now.  What I would ask is what do you think would be a proper replacement for "The Hammer of the Underworld?"   

[Morgul Orc]

What I would ask is what do you think would be a proper replacement for "The Hammer of the Underworld?"   

Yes that's the main thing in this Topic to think about a unique power that replaces Grond 

[helloa2134]

I really don't think Grond should be replaced by a summon.  Summons are cool and all, but every other faction has a summon as a final power.  Mordor was unique in part because it had no ultimate-level summons.

Finding something that 'fits' Mordor is tough.

[ziqing]

Maybe strengthen Grond a little bit make it able to breathe fire...
Actually I always wish they could strengthen the whole city defense system of good faction, like makes city wall only vulnerable to heavy catapults and mines, make gates a lot stronger, that will make Grond more useful

[Morgul Orc]

Maybe strengthen Grond a little bit make it able to breathe fire...
Actually I always wish they could strengthen the whole city defense system of good faction, like makes city wall only vulnerable to heavy catapults and mines, make gates a lot stronger, that will make Grond more useful

In my opinion catapults should only attack normal buildings and not the castle walls or gates. Walls should only be destroyed  with mines (maybe). Gates should only be destroyed by battering rams, mines, hammer trolls and Grond, This will make people use Siege towers, Mines and Siege ladders more.  And I agree with you that Gates should be stronger. But I think the team would have to remove the Suicide Berserker because he is unnecessary since Isengard already has mines and the Suicide Berserker power.

I also thought about if Grond is to be the final power of Mordor maybe we can add something to it like a special leadership and some abilities to it so people may want to choose it over Gorthaur power.

[helloa2134]

I do not think it is necessary to have Grond (or a replacement) be a total substitute for Gorthaur.  I mean, "The Power of Ages Past" is the culmination of Mordor's growing strength. I doubt any power could be more tempting than it is. I want Grond to stay as the other ultimate-level spell, but i would almost never choose it over Gorthaur.

[Morgul Orc]

That's why I suggested that Grond  should have special powerful leadership and maybe some abilities, like a Hero and a Siege weapon at the same time.

[Morgul Orc]

Since I think it's better and unique to make Grond a Hero-like siege weapon I thought of a few abilities that Grond can have.

1) It can be upgraded to have archers on top of it.
2) It can be upgraded to have orc guards on the sides.
3) Summon 3 Attack Trolls ability (I suggest Grond to have this ability instead of Molluk since many people have a negative opinion of Molluk)
4) Ability that causes fear
5) A powerful leadership ability that can have resistance to fear, all nearby enemy units lose leadership, nearby units gain 30% attack and lowers enemy unit's armor by 30%

Do you think that this is OP or decent for a final power? Rememer that you also require a level 3 Siege works and can be only used once for each siege works.
Gorthaur is great as a free hero. But you can also choose Grond for assault/support even if you don't use it often to destroy structores. So do you think it would be worth it now to choose Grond over Gorthaur with those abilities and mighty leadership?