[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions
Heroes - how powerful should they be?
Darthxxxx15:
I unfortunately don't have the time to explain everything for the moment but all i can say is that the complete hero scale has to be reworked, and for once, i prefered the scale made by professionnals in the original game.
Evidently, ET tries to make it best, that's why they take into account our suggestions, but it is anormal that all rohan heroes are that strong, Eowyn is just unkillable for what she is,
About Ganddalf, he is, to me, both too weak in his spells and in his strength, he should easiloy beat all heroes exepting enemies like the witchking who could defeat him quite easily or sauron of course but today, i had a simple nazgul, alone, who killed my gandalf extremely rapdily
IMO, the hero scale is one of the rare thing to completely rework in the mod because as i often say for the rest, what a talent!
Shadowlord:
1) My favorite heroes are Sauron, Shagrat & Gorbag, Theoden, Bilbo, Witch King, Boromir, and Saruman. My reasons being that all of these heroes are pretty useful, though some are harder to use than others like Saruman and Theoden. But I also love heroes that have a unique incorporation with their factions such as Sauron and his influence of Sauron ability that makes your army stronger, or Theoden's ability to empower your armies. The best part is the ring heroes, I can't tell you how satisfying it is to control the battlefield with ring hero Boromir despite how I was outnumbered by the enemy. Or the crazy variety of abilities that Ring Hero Sauron possesses.
2) In terms of heroes I don't like or rarely use, I can think of a few. For example, though I do like the concept of trolls, Mollok is a bit too expensive and difficult to use because of how weak he can be in combat when fighting archers and spearman, despite how he's suppose to be a tank. He is decent in the late game but he isn't that useful in the early game especially compared to the Nazgul, I would like to be able to use him more if he had more utility with Mordor. I always found the scout heroes to be very boring with the exception of Shagrat and Bilbo, the Spy from Bree is ok, the big reason is that the other two scout heroes Merry and Pippin are used mostly to scout the enemy and provide visuals on their progress, which I feel has no significance in the meta game itself. The better scout heroes provide good economic benefits or cheap combat aid. Such as Bilbo's gold from the mountain ability or Shagrat's versatility. I admit the spy from bree has his uses in terms of his ultimate ability granting you resources, but beyond that all of his other abilities and pretty boring and not too useful. Merry and Pippin feel flat out useless in the end game. As for non scout heroes, I feel that Isengard's heroes aren't too useful, Saruman's tower mechanic is pretty cool despite the small range of Saruman's abilities while he is in the tower but other than him, the other Isengard heroes don't seem too useful to me, especially since when I play as Isengard I try to devote my economy to upgrading my units, and I feel that the heroes don't compliment that tactic as well as they should, especially Grima who seems too situational. The Rohan heroes though useful, they don't seem that fun when they are simply meant to compliment your army, rather than being useful on their own. But maybe that's the point of the Rohan heroes. Not sure
3) In my opinion the heroes are a mixed bag, on one hand with game changer heroes like Sauron, Theoden, and max level Boromir, you feel accomplished for the work you did in leveling them up. And showing off their powerful abilities to destroy the enemy or empower your army makes you feel all the more accomplished. Some heroes though don't provide enough utility for their cost like Gandalf, Saruman, and Mollok but have the potential to be pretty fun to play but their lack of utility or combat strength makes them less fun and more repetitive to use.
4) I feel that some heroes should be tankier like Mollok, Gandalf, and Gothmog. My idea is that heroes, especially the more renowned heroes from the lore should be able to hold their ground, not against large armies but small groups, and get taken down should they get overwhelmed by very large numbers or small groups of upgraded troops. This shouldn't apply to every hero but tankier heroes should be able to take a lot more abuse than they currently are in the game, especially damage from archers. Considering how insanely useful archers are in the game I think they shouldn't be able to deal as much damage to heroes as they currently do in the game. More specifically, heroes shouldn't be as vulnerable to infantry but rather more vulnerable against enemy heroes. In a nut shell, the health of heroes is not as healthy, I am not saying that for all heroes in the game, I am just saying it for most heroes.
5) I do like the melee damage of most heroes in the game, but it would be nice if heroes could do more damage against Calvary to discouraged spamming those units. I guess I just find it annoying when a hero is being chased down by calvary and can barely defend himself even at higher levels, I feel that it should be discouraged to use calavry against heroes and instead use upgraded soldiers, pikeman, and elite units instead. Other than that, melee damage is fine.
6) In terms of ranged hero damage, I feel that range heroes are simply meant to deal damage from a distance so they are less likely to get killed. I rarely use faramir but as for Lurtz, I don't switch him to melee mode except as a last resort to prevent him from getting overwhelmed. I would call the melee/range switch function an ok concept. Not great, but ok, I would leave it.
7) Gandalf's spells are definitely too weak for his cost, I feel that he would be a lot more useful and fun if his spells were more powerful like in the older versions of BFME, on top of the fact that Gandalf is pretty weak health wise.
8) In my mind the Wizard blast should be used as a crowd control ability to force the enemy player to manuever his armies carefully, but in the game the ability is pretty weak against non-basic infantry units, like if I hit a troll it would only damage like 1/3 of its health rather than push it back or increase the radius of the ability. The ability should make Gandalf less vulnerable against crowds of enemies to make up for his low armor. As for the damage question, I would say 1500-2000, since only the elite units should be able to withstand such a powerful ability, as I stated earlier, upgraded or elite units would be the preferred non-hero counter to heroes. If his wizard's blast cooldown needs to be increase with this buff than I am all for it.
9) As for the Word of Power. I feel that giving a 3000 cost hero a game changer ability is the key to securing his role as a game changer hero. Increasing the damage seems very necessary to making the hero useful, of course there are ways to prevent this ability from being too op such as making the cast time longer so your opponent can react to it more easily or having the ultimate destroy non-upgraded units but heavily damage upgraded units. This also applies to archers, siege weapons, calavry units, and monsters. But not being too effective against enemy heroes. So overall I would prefer if the ability was more powerful but with a higher cooldown, casting time, and damaging specific non-upgraded units. Making it the perfect game changer ability for Gondor's game changer hero Gandalf.
Sorry if my suggestions came off as confusing or unclear but I hope these suggestions on hero improvements help improve the game overall.
Adrigabbro:
--- Zitat von: Shadowlord am 13. Aug 2015, 00:56 ---1) My favorite heroes are Sauron, Shagrat & Gorbag, Theoden, Bilbo, Witch King, Boromir, and Saruman. My reasons being that all of these heroes are pretty useful, though some are harder to use than others like Saruman and Theoden. But I also love heroes that have a unique incorporation with their factions such as Sauron and his influence of Sauron ability that makes your army stronger, or Theoden's ability to empower your armies. The best part is the ring heroes, I can't tell you how satisfying it is to control the battlefield with ring hero Boromir despite how I was outnumbered by the enemy. Or the crazy variety of abilities that Ring Hero Sauron possesses.
2) In terms of heroes I don't like or rarely use, I can think of a few. For example, though I do like the concept of trolls, Mollok is a bit too expensive and difficult to use because of how weak he can be in combat when fighting archers and spearman, despite how he's suppose to be a tank. He is decent in the late game but he isn't that useful in the early game especially compared to the Nazgul, I would like to be able to use him more if he had more utility with Mordor. I always found the scout heroes to be very boring with the exception of Shagrat and Bilbo, the Spy from Bree is ok, the big reason is that the other two scout heroes Merry and Pippin are used mostly to scout the enemy and provide visuals on their progress, which I feel has no significance in the meta game itself. The better scout heroes provide good economic benefits or cheap combat aid. Such as Bilbo's gold from the mountain ability or Shagrat's versatility. I admit the spy from bree has his uses in terms of his ultimate ability granting you resources, but beyond that all of his other abilities and pretty boring and not too useful. Merry and Pippin feel flat out useless in the end game. As for non scout heroes, I feel that Isengard's heroes aren't too useful, Saruman's tower mechanic is pretty cool despite the small range of Saruman's abilities while he is in the tower but other than him, the other Isengard heroes don't seem too useful to me, especially since when I play as Isengard I try to devote my economy to upgrading my units, and I feel that the heroes don't compliment that tactic as well as they should, especially Grima who seems too situational. The Rohan heroes though useful, they don't seem that fun when they are simply meant to compliment your army, rather than being useful on their own. But maybe that's the point of the Rohan heroes. Not sure
3) In my opinion the heroes are a mixed bag, on one hand with game changer heroes like Sauron, Theoden, and max level Boromir, you feel accomplished for the work you did in leveling them up. And showing off their powerful abilities to destroy the enemy or empower your army makes you feel all the more accomplished. Some heroes though don't provide enough utility for their cost like Gandalf, Saruman, and Mollok but have the potential to be pretty fun to play but their lack of utility or combat strength makes them less fun and more repetitive to use.
4) I feel that some heroes should be tankier like Mollok, Gandalf, and Gothmog. My idea is that heroes, especially the more renowned heroes from the lore should be able to hold their ground, not against large armies but small groups, and get taken down should they get overwhelmed by very large numbers or small groups of upgraded troops. This shouldn't apply to every hero but tankier heroes should be able to take a lot more abuse than they currently are in the game, especially damage from archers. Considering how insanely useful archers are in the game I think they shouldn't be able to deal as much damage to heroes as they currently do in the game. More specifically, heroes shouldn't be as vulnerable to infantry but rather more vulnerable against enemy heroes. In a nut shell, the health of heroes is not as healthy, I am not saying that for all heroes in the game, I am just saying it for most heroes.
5) I do like the melee damage of most heroes in the game, but it would be nice if heroes could do more damage against Calvary to discouraged spamming those units. I guess I just find it annoying when a hero is being chased down by calvary and can barely defend himself even at higher levels, I feel that it should be discouraged to use calavry against heroes and instead use upgraded soldiers, pikeman, and elite units instead. Other than that, melee damage is fine.
6) In terms of ranged hero damage, I feel that range heroes are simply meant to deal damage from a distance so they are less likely to get killed. I rarely use faramir but as for Lurtz, I don't switch him to melee mode except as a last resort to prevent him from getting overwhelmed. I would call the melee/range switch function an ok concept. Not great, but ok, I would leave it.
7) Gandalf's spells are definitely too weak for his cost, I feel that he would be a lot more useful and fun if his spells were more powerful like in the older versions of BFME, on top of the fact that Gandalf is pretty weak health wise.
8) In my mind the Wizard blast should be used as a crowd control ability to force the enemy player to manuever his armies carefully, but in the game the ability is pretty weak against non-basic infantry units, like if I hit a troll it would only damage like 1/3 of its health rather than push it back or increase the radius of the ability. The ability should make Gandalf less vulnerable against crowds of enemies to make up for his low armor. As for the damage question, I would say 1500-2000, since only the elite units should be able to withstand such a powerful ability, as I stated earlier, upgraded or elite units would be the preferred non-hero counter to heroes. If his wizard's blast cooldown needs to be increase with this buff than I am all for it.
9) As for the Word of Power. I feel that giving a 3000 cost hero a game changer ability is the key to securing his role as a game changer hero. Increasing the damage seems very necessary to making the hero useful, of course there are ways to prevent this ability from being too op such as making the cast time longer so your opponent can react to it more easily or having the ultimate destroy non-upgraded units but heavily damage upgraded units. This also applies to archers, siege weapons, calavry units, and monsters. But not being too effective against enemy heroes. So overall I would prefer if the ability was more powerful but with a higher cooldown, casting time, and damaging specific non-upgraded units. Making it the perfect game changer ability for Gondor's game changer hero Gandalf.
Sorry if my suggestions came off as confusing or unclear but I hope these suggestions on hero improvements help improve the game overall.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I respectfully disagree with you concerning resistance and health of heroes. I feel it wouldn't be fair if a single hero, no matter how strong he is, could defeat a whole army by himself. Also you want to reduce damage taken by heroes from archers, but they already take baely no damage from arrows. If anything, I would rather increase arrow damae to heroes.
Shadowlord:
"I respectfully disagree with you concerning resistance and health of heroes. I feel it wouldn't be fair if a single hero, no matter how strong he is, could defeat a whole army by himself. Also you want to reduce damage taken by heroes from archers, but they already take barely no damage from arrows. If anything, I would rather increase arrow damae to heroes."
I respect your opinion but when I meant a single hero being able to stand up to an army. I meant game changer heroes, like Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman. Those heroes who are powerful in their own right as the lore established. I feel that it would capture of the spirit of the characters more accurately to their book counterparts. As well as encouraging other players to try a different approach to killing said heroes. Like instead of spamming archers which is just an unfair and unbalanced strategy, trust me I have seen games where a player spamming rangers can destroy entire armies easily. And instead have the player try a more cautious approach like say isolating the hero or maybe using elite or upgraded units that wouldn't be as vulnerable to the enemy hero's spells. That is what would make a 3000 gold hero investment truly worth while.
Bogdan Hmel:
I want to restore the discussion in this thread. I hasten to say that I love this mod, and I write only because I want to help make it even better.
P.S.Next, I express only my opinion and I don't want to offend anyone.
P.P.S.English is not my native language, so I apologize in advance for any errors in the text.
I believe that the need to increase the strength of the more powerful heroes. I also believe that it is necessary to slightly increase the armor of most heroes.
I think that the heroes should have a greater gap in power.I propose to be divided into three categories of heroes.
Heroes of the third rank (cost from 1000 to 1800-2000) These are the main characters, though, and have useful skills, but not outstanding personalities of Middle-earth
The heroes of the second rank (cost from 1800-2000 to 2600) This outstanding heroes, one of the leaders of their factions.
They should have an advantage in the confrontation with the heroes of the third rank.
Finally, the heroes of the first rank (cost 3000) This is the most powerful heroes of the Third Age of Middle-earth. They need to be much stronger than the other heroes.
I want you to understand me correctly, I'm not asking to abandon the specialized heroes.But I do not want to get a situation where Eowyn alone kills Saruman without any problems.
(Saruman can defeat her only having ten levels).
I propose to significantly increase the power of the heroes of the first rank. Not to harm the balance, you need to increase the cost of these heroes.I know about the AI problems with heroes cost more 3000.
Therefore I propose to increase the cost of the heroes with building additional extensions, such as the tower sorcerer in Isengard.That is, to hire Saruman, you must first build a tower sorcerer.
Witch King for example, already has such a system, because you first need to build a fortress of Minas Ithil, and then another, and buy armor to the Witch-king.
In any case, heroes who cost 3000 did not have the strength to match this price.
Now I speak about some heroes.
Boromir: I do not like what you've done the same characteristics for the heroes one specialization.Example Boromir most indicative.
He is tank.Hama and Ugluk also tanks. They all have the same characteristics, health 5500, damage 260.This is despite the fact that Boromir is more expensive.
I understand that you can say that he has more useful skills.But the problem is even no in its cost.Boromir more significant figure in the world of Tolkien than Hama and Ugluk.
Boromir killed the Uruk-hai scout with three strikes. It's too little damage.There is also a problem with Boromir- When he fights, it is sometimes too long before striking again. It happens too often and annoying.
So I think it is necessary to increase his damage despite the fact that he was a tank.If you use my method classification of heroes, then Hama and Ugluk the heroes of the third rank, and Boromir - the hero of the second rank.
Aragorn:I really like the system that you have come up for him.I only see the problem with his last skill.When Aragorn becomes king, he should get more useful leadership or active buff.
Also, you can still change his ability to call the Dead,that they bring more benefits.
Gandalf:I understand your reluctance to add a large number of skills using the palantir.I myself do not support add many abilities for all the heroes. But I think that for Istari can make an exception.
Gandalf has is only active magical abilities, but as we know from the book, his main strength was the ability to ignite the hearts of those who are struggling with Sauron. Therefore, I propose to add to it three more abilities to make more useful Gandalf.
I have such ideas. You can add an active buff, or passive leadership associated with the ring Narya. You can use the idea of the film "The Hobbit" when Gandalf blinds Azog and other orcs.( in Dol-Guldur).You can also use a spherical shield Gandalf as the active ability
(While the current implementation is also excellent).In any case, Gandalf to be amplified.Or by enhancing current capabilities or through the addition of new capabilities through the Palantir(It seems to me the second option will make the game much more interesting with Gandalf)
Mouth of Sauron:I propose to remove the ability of a lightning strike.At first, is the copying ability to Gandalf(But we know that Edain team strives for uniqueness).Secondly, it's too powerful ability for a man, even if it is a black numenorean.And Ambassador of Sauron - a good example of wise use of Palantir.
Saruman: Saruman, as a Gandalf ,should be strengthened. He has to get the Palantir to increase the number of abilities(As it was in 3.8.1).Saruman - the personification of Isengard.He must be a really strong opponent for any enemy.
Some of the ideas for new skills:Teleport to the castle(From the book we know that Saruman could very quickly move, if necessary(So you can save Saruman in the battle, but cooldown to be very large);It's not the best idea, but maybe you will like it). disarm the enemy(This idea is taken from the film, when Saruman disarmed Gandalf.)There is a problem, that Grima has a similar ability .
Saruman must have leadership(His soldiers obey him unquestioningly, and very strange that Saruman has no leadership). You can also add the ability like have Theoden (corrupt) - conclusion of peace(From the book we know the power of voice Saruman, and the fact that after the destruction of Isengard he tried to make peace with Rohan).
Also, I have an idea what to replace the ability of Saruman (placed on the tower) which gave experience for the buildings(Because in the current system, this ability is useless).
Saruman may reinforce Allied troops at a great distance, and on the contrary to weaken the enemy.(As it was with a group of orcs who had captured Merry and Pippin, Saruman increased their strength, and, on the contrary, weakened three hunters who pursued the Orcs.).
Galadriel:I understand we are not able to play with her.But I watched the video of the beta version 4.2.I noticed that on the eighth level Galadriel has damage 264 (or 246).I understand that she deals damage over a wide area.But then it turns out that it is helpless against a single strong enemy units and heroes.
I understand that she is not a hero killer, but she must have a way to fight against such powerful units.You can add the ability to switch attacks(Following the example of Sauron (dark and fire)) 1) over a wide area; 2) against single targets.
I also support the idea to restore the ability "gifts Lorien" back to the book of spells.It takes valuable slot, but is used only a few times.Remove from spell books can be the ability to "shelling", because it is useless and uninteresting.I know that you like the current system, but my suggestion seems more logical, and free another slot.
Sorry for such a long post, but I could not hide it under spoiler ((
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