29. Mär 2024, 15:16 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: About Heroes Killers  (Gelesen 4195 mal)

ziqing

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 137
About Heroes Killers
« am: 5. Jul 2015, 05:12 »
I start this thread to discuss the current roles of "Heroes Killer" type heroes of each faction. We all know in edain 4.0 the heroes are impaired already , now they cann't survive being surrounded by multiple enemy hordes, we still have this
"Heroes Killer" type heroes: Aragorn, Eowyn, Lutrz(these three are basically pure hero killer), Witchking(final form), Throin Orkenshield and Throin III(these three are other types with hero killer aspect), and none for Arnor, my questions(concerns) are:

For the following question, let's focus on the first three relatively pure hero killer, since Witchking and Throins are also designed for other use
(1) Which of these heroes do you find most interesting? Which one are not very interesting in your game experience?
(2) In a game against AI, do you find hero killer useful? Or do you prefer to use massive units against enemy hero instead?
(3) In a game against other players, do you use hero killers often?
(4) Do you always find these heroes have advantages against other enemy heroes in battle? Are they effective in killing enemy core heroes in a real battle?
(5) Do you think these hero killers are of reasonable cost? If not, which one do you think is too expensive or too cheap?

Now also consider the last three heroes,
(6) These three heroes are basically the most expensive unit of their faction, which means they are often recruited in middle or late game, when fighting against enemy heroes which already get higher levels, do you find their hero killer aspect useful?
(7) This question may be related to (5),do you think we need a pure hero killer cost more than 2000 resources? I personally think for all heroes cost more than 2000, we should make these hero some other types with hero killer aspect, since if they are only aimed at enemy heroes, they may not be worth that much resources, and they may not really have any advantages against enemy heroes in the middle or late game. Remember since 4.0 heroes are already impaired a lot. What's your opinions on this?
(8) Do you think Arnor also deserve a hero killer?
(9) The final question is a little bit specific, do you think Aragorn should gain a more practical leadership(more directly like defense bonus for nearby allies) for his Gondor and final form, or do you think we should keep him as a pure hero killer with no direct support aspect?

Thank you, I am really looking forward to your opinions on this.

By the way, I am not very satisfied for Aragorn's design and roles since 4.0, and I am pretty sure I will not like Celeborn's future roles in Lorien if he turns out to be another pure hero killer cost more than 2000 resources, I would like to know if there are other players with similar concerns

Elite KryPtik

  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #1 am: 5. Jul 2015, 20:00 »
I think you're misunderstanding the roles of heroes. They aren't impaired, as you call them, but you can't just solo entire armies with them anymore(unless playing legendary heroes) which is quite realistic. If you keep your heroes in the middle of your army, the buffs and powers they possess can be put to proper use. The only heroes that should ever be alone and unguarded are the scout heroes, whose cheap cost means that the risk of losing them isn't so big of a deal.

I think that the cost of heroes on the whole is quite fair, for recruitment anyways. Having them stay the same price for revival seems a tad much to me, especially since that cost actually increases as they gain higher levels. The only change I'd like to see would be to make the scout heroes even cheaper, as they can die so incredibly easily many players seem to prefer to put the money into troops, and have the revival cost of heroes halved.

As for the hero killer heroes, they work almost frighteningly well, especially Eowyn. I wouldn't say that Aragorn is purely a hero killer, he has many useful support abilities, like Athelas and Elendil, not to mention his final summon for army of the dead, which if used in the middle of an enemy army will absolutely devastate it. Lurtz can also act as a tank with his carnage ability. The only unit that I would say is purely a hero killer is Eowyn, although her Shield Maiden makes her rather tanky as well. In closing I think I'd say that most heroes can be used for most things, just some are better at certain things than others.
Also I don't understand why you don't like Aragorns design, it fits perfectly with his role in the movies, and has to be one of the coolest hero designs in the game IMO. Although knife throw is a bit glitchy, I wish the team would refine it xD
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

ziqing

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 137
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #2 am: 5. Jul 2015, 20:58 »
I have no misunderstanding for heroes' roles in edain 4.0, that's exactly why I have this concern. Heroes can be killed by massive hordes easily, they are more like support in battle, I have no problem with that, actually I agree with this change. The problem is, in this case do we really need a hero killer role in the game? If I spend those resources in units, I could have a huge advantage in hordes against my opponent who puts more than 2000 resources only for one hero. Hero killers are more like assassins now, they are brittle and of little use in fierce battle in front line. Eowyn is the most typical and practical hero killer so far, because she is cheaper than most of the core hero(with leadership) of other faction, that's the idea, hero killer should be cheaper than their goals. Lutrz, as you said, is not that a pure hero killer,although the team claimed him to be, since he does have powerful leadership for late game.
To the contrary, Aragorn's role in Gondor is rather awkward. He is too expensive, in regular game one cann't recruit him in early game, while in the middle game when there are already massive units on the battlefield, he is already of little use. Even with his ability, there is no guarantee he could kill enemy core heroes(with higher levels) and remain alive after that, not mentioning his opponents are usually cheaper than he is. He has no leadership(I don't even want to talk about his final leadership), you claim he has support aspect, care to specify? If you mean "Athelas", I have to say this ability is negligible in middle game, its effect can hardly recover 1/4 of hero's health. His final ability, I won't speak for others, but I never find that powerful, it looks absurd, the undeads just stand here, sometime not even attack, do you really expect you enemy see the undeads stand here, and still go there to get themselves killed? At least they should make these undeads move with Aragorn.  In my opinion, Aragorn for this version is worth 2000 at most, even so I will hardly recruit him before trash time in one game. And the hope of men, the first king of reunited kingdom deserves more than just that.

Elite KryPtik

  • Gardist von Meduseld
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.050
  • Arise! Arise, Writers of KryPtik!
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #3 am: 5. Jul 2015, 21:25 »
Well in regards to the advantage of having units over hero killer type heroes, it really comes down to the individual judgment of the player. Removing the hero killers is really just a step backwards, not forwards, and all it would accomplish is restricting player freedom. Who knows, maybe your opponent has spammed out a bunch of heroes rather than troops, in which case a hero killer might do a better job than an army.

As for Aragorn, athelas late game is far from useless, its saved my ass plenty of times. Also you shouldn't ignore his final leadership, the global discount to heroes and fear resistance are both extremely useful. However, I do see you point, the final leadership is a little lackluster, and the statue buff in the leadership is all but useless. I would say that perhaps either make the army of the dead a small squad that can move like in the old days, or make the leadership buff nearby heroes instead of statues. I also think 2500 is a fair price for him in his current state.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

ziqing

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 137
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #4 am: 5. Jul 2015, 21:50 »
We all have our own perspectives, I am OK with disagreement and really appreciate your feedback. I never wish to delete hero killers' roles, they are useful under certain circumstances, maybe as you say if your opponent spam out heroes(I guess you are referring to Rohan, that may be the only possible faction with lots of statues), but these situations are rare, and this strategy will cost a lot and has huge disadvantage in army(one hero already cost resources for 2-3 hordes of units), which makes it not practical in real game, especially PVP game.
My point of this thread is, heroes are already support roles since 4.0(units are the main role), hero killers are not that important. For those heroes cost more than 2000, they are usually very important figure for their faction in the book(for example, Aragorn for men, Celeborn for Lorien, Throin for Dwarves), it seems not fair to just assign a second-class role to them. That's also why I like the role of Throin in Ered Luin, he is the core hero of his faction with some hero killer aspect(Fili and Kili), that should also applies to Aragorn and all other heroes who cost more than 2000.

Draco100000

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 128
  • Revenge? REVENGE? I will show you revenge!
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #5 am: 7. Jul 2015, 02:01 »
Hero killers, as other many heros are very important... in early game, right now you can find the metagame tactic with gondor and Dwarves is going for heros first, using statues to reduce their cost to half and get them to destroy enemie units. It is very usually to find hero battles in early game ( like in the old times 3.8.1 ) getting very important role, the hero killers. Aragorn will be the most important hero for gondor,and Thorin Oakenshield for ered luin too. they only costs 1300 and 1250 using statues.

ziqing

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 137
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #6 am: 26. Jul 2015, 17:46 »
Hero killers, as other many heros are very important... in early game, right now you can find the metagame tactic with gondor and Dwarves is going for heros first, using statues to reduce their cost to half and get them to destroy enemie units. It is very usually to find hero battles in early game ( like in the old times 3.8.1 ) getting very important role, the hero killers. Aragorn will be the most important hero for gondor,and Thorin Oakenshield for ered luin too. they only costs 1300 and 1250 using statues.
OK, now the statue rush tactic is nerfed, I think it is time we pick up this topic again. Do you really find Aragorn "the most important hero" in Gondor faction? And when will you recruit him?

Skeeverboy

  • Orkjäger vom Amon Hen
  • **
  • Beiträge: 870
  • Bankai Senbonzakura Kageyoshi
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #7 am: 26. Jul 2015, 18:00 »
Zitat
OK, now the statue rush tactic is nerfed
In 4.1.1 statue rush tactic isn't so good, because statues now cost 150 and 4 reduce just 30%.

Draco100000

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 128
  • Revenge? REVENGE? I will show you revenge!
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #8 am: 27. Jul 2015, 02:17 »
Ok this thread was a bit old, but ok i will write here again. Well In my opinion Aragorn is a very important hero, but isnt my first option of course. I prefer to get as soon as posible Beregond, and then boromir or dol amroth outpost ( both if possible) Then imrahill and finally aragorn. Imrahill have enough damage to get down enemie heros, so aragorn isnt needed almost mid-lategame.

ziqing

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 137
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #9 am: 27. Jul 2015, 02:47 »
Ok this thread was a bit old, but ok i will write here again. Well In my opinion Aragorn is a very important hero, but isnt my first option of course. I prefer to get as soon as posible Beregond, and then boromir or dol amroth outpost ( both if possible) Then imrahill and finally aragorn. Imrahill have enough damage to get down enemie heros, so aragorn isnt needed almost mid-lategame.

Actually I completely agree with your tactic of Gondor, that's the problem. Gondor has very good elite units and all of its heroes except Aragorn and Gandalf are of reasonable price and very practical. I always manage get them all before Aragorn turns level 10, which makes his leadership not that useful.

I actually always use Tower Guard and Ranger in middle game and they are really good against heroes(I believe tower guard has damage bonus against heroes), also I have to save for Dol Amorth units and Imrahil for extra leadership. Aragorn is good at dual but again he is too expensive, and if he accidently died it will be a huge waste.

There is just no place for Aragron until late game, however unlike Gandalf, Aragron cann't really make a huge difference in late game. Hero killers are most useful in early game to suppress enemy heroes, in late game when heroes are all hided in massive hordes it is really hard to let them do their work and remain alive after that

Sir_Stig

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 119
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #10 am: 27. Jul 2015, 17:07 »
Could Aragorn's cost go down, while increasing the kills it takes for him to level? that way he might get used more, without being overpowered for his price.

Draco100000

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 128
  • Revenge? REVENGE? I will show you revenge!
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #11 am: 27. Jul 2015, 17:28 »
Could Aragorn's cost go down, while increasing the kills it takes for him to level? that way he might get used more, without being overpowered for his price.

A hero who can deal 800 damage during 30 secs, must cost 2500, I mean, you cant get this damge with any other, combined with troops and other heros, he can easily destroy every heros of your enemie and put the battle in your favor. Also i think he is very usefull in Lategame, when enemie is confident with enormous armies, he can put his heros in weak positions allowing you to hunt them one by one.

So yeah, he is extreamly powerfull, but i Think he must get 1 leadership as Dain or Theoden But at level 10. And only 25% Of attack maybe, no defense bonus, because nearly all gondor heros have leaderships.

Skeeverboy

  • Orkjäger vom Amon Hen
  • **
  • Beiträge: 870
  • Bankai Senbonzakura Kageyoshi
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #12 am: 27. Jul 2015, 17:46 »
Zitat
So yeah, he is extreamly powerfull, but i Think he must get 1 leadership as Dain or Theoden But at level 10.
He is a Herokiller, no Supporter.
Zitat
because nearly all gondor heros have leaderships.
Gandalf, Pippin, Beregrond and Aragorn has no leadership. Just Boromir and Faramir.
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Jul 2015, 17:53 von Skeeverboy »

Draco100000

  • Gastwirt zu Bree
  • **
  • Beiträge: 128
  • Revenge? REVENGE? I will show you revenge!
Re: About Heroes Killers
« Antwort #13 am: 27. Jul 2015, 18:00 »
Zitat
So yeah, he is extreamly powerfull, but i Think he must get 1 leadership as Dain or Theoden But at level 10.
He is a Herokiller, no Supporter.
Zitat
because nearly all gondor heros have leaderships.
Gandalf, Pippin, Beregrond and Aragorn has no leadership. Just Boromir and Faramir.
Aragorn have at lvl 10, beregond have heroe leadership, Imrahil have leadership.