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About Heroes Killers

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ziqing:
I start this thread to discuss the current roles of "Heroes Killer" type heroes of each faction. We all know in edain 4.0 the heroes are impaired already , now they cann't survive being surrounded by multiple enemy hordes, we still have this
"Heroes Killer" type heroes: Aragorn, Eowyn, Lutrz(these three are basically pure hero killer), Witchking(final form), Throin Orkenshield and Throin III(these three are other types with hero killer aspect), and none for Arnor, my questions(concerns) are:

For the following question, let's focus on the first three relatively pure hero killer, since Witchking and Throins are also designed for other use
(1) Which of these heroes do you find most interesting? Which one are not very interesting in your game experience?
(2) In a game against AI, do you find hero killer useful? Or do you prefer to use massive units against enemy hero instead?
(3) In a game against other players, do you use hero killers often?
(4) Do you always find these heroes have advantages against other enemy heroes in battle? Are they effective in killing enemy core heroes in a real battle?
(5) Do you think these hero killers are of reasonable cost? If not, which one do you think is too expensive or too cheap?

Now also consider the last three heroes,
(6) These three heroes are basically the most expensive unit of their faction, which means they are often recruited in middle or late game, when fighting against enemy heroes which already get higher levels, do you find their hero killer aspect useful?
(7) This question may be related to (5),do you think we need a pure hero killer cost more than 2000 resources? I personally think for all heroes cost more than 2000, we should make these hero some other types with hero killer aspect, since if they are only aimed at enemy heroes, they may not be worth that much resources, and they may not really have any advantages against enemy heroes in the middle or late game. Remember since 4.0 heroes are already impaired a lot. What's your opinions on this?
(8) Do you think Arnor also deserve a hero killer?
(9) The final question is a little bit specific, do you think Aragorn should gain a more practical leadership(more directly like defense bonus for nearby allies) for his Gondor and final form， or do you think we should keep him as a pure hero killer with no direct support aspect?

Thank you, I am really looking forward to your opinions on this.

By the way, I am not very satisfied for Aragorn's design and roles since 4.0, and I am pretty sure I will not like Celeborn's future roles in Lorien if he turns out to be another pure hero killer cost more than 2000 resources, I would like to know if there are other players with similar concerns

Elite KryPtik:
I think you're misunderstanding the roles of heroes. They aren't impaired, as you call them, but you can't just solo entire armies with them anymore(unless playing legendary heroes) which is quite realistic. If you keep your heroes in the middle of your army, the buffs and powers they possess can be put to proper use. The only heroes that should ever be alone and unguarded are the scout heroes, whose cheap cost means that the risk of losing them isn't so big of a deal.

I think that the cost of heroes on the whole is quite fair, for recruitment anyways. Having them stay the same price for revival seems a tad much to me, especially since that cost actually increases as they gain higher levels. The only change I'd like to see would be to make the scout heroes even cheaper, as they can die so incredibly easily many players seem to prefer to put the money into troops, and have the revival cost of heroes halved.

As for the hero killer heroes, they work almost frighteningly well, especially Eowyn. I wouldn't say that Aragorn is purely a hero killer, he has many useful support abilities, like Athelas and Elendil, not to mention his final summon for army of the dead, which if used in the middle of an enemy army will absolutely devastate it. Lurtz can also act as a tank with his carnage ability. The only unit that I would say is purely a hero killer is Eowyn, although her Shield Maiden makes her rather tanky as well. In closing I think I'd say that most heroes can be used for most things, just some are better at certain things than others.
Also I don't understand why you don't like Aragorns design, it fits perfectly with his role in the movies, and has to be one of the coolest hero designs in the game IMO. Although knife throw is a bit glitchy, I wish the team would refine it xD

ziqing:
I have no misunderstanding for heroes' roles in edain 4.0, that's exactly why I have this concern. Heroes can be killed by massive hordes easily, they are more like support in battle, I have no problem with that, actually I agree with this change. The problem is, in this case do we really need a hero killer role in the game? If I spend those resources in units, I could have a huge advantage in hordes against my opponent who puts more than 2000 resources only for one hero. Hero killers are more like assassins now, they are brittle and of little use in fierce battle in front line. Eowyn is the most typical and practical hero killer so far, because she is cheaper than most of the core hero(with leadership) of other faction, that's the idea, hero killer should be cheaper than their goals. Lutrz, as you said, is not that a pure hero killer,although the team claimed him to be, since he does have powerful leadership for late game.
To the contrary, Aragorn's role in Gondor is rather awkward. He is too expensive, in regular game one cann't recruit him in early game, while in the middle game when there are already massive units on the battlefield, he is already of little use. Even with his ability, there is no guarantee he could kill enemy core heroes(with higher levels) and remain alive after that, not mentioning his opponents are usually cheaper than he is. He has no leadership(I don't even want to talk about his final leadership), you claim he has support aspect, care to specify? If you mean "Athelas", I have to say this ability is negligible in middle game, its effect can hardly recover 1/4 of hero's health. His final ability, I won't speak for others, but I never find that powerful, it looks absurd, the undeads just stand here, sometime not even attack, do you really expect you enemy see the undeads stand here, and still go there to get themselves killed? At least they should make these undeads move with Aragorn.  In my opinion, Aragorn for this version is worth 2000 at most, even so I will hardly recruit him before trash time in one game. And the hope of men, the first king of reunited kingdom deserves more than just that.

Elite KryPtik:
Well in regards to the advantage of having units over hero killer type heroes, it really comes down to the individual judgment of the player. Removing the hero killers is really just a step backwards, not forwards, and all it would accomplish is restricting player freedom. Who knows, maybe your opponent has spammed out a bunch of heroes rather than troops, in which case a hero killer might do a better job than an army.

As for Aragorn, athelas late game is far from useless, its saved my ass plenty of times. Also you shouldn't ignore his final leadership, the global discount to heroes and fear resistance are both extremely useful. However, I do see you point, the final leadership is a little lackluster, and the statue buff in the leadership is all but useless. I would say that perhaps either make the army of the dead a small squad that can move like in the old days, or make the leadership buff nearby heroes instead of statues. I also think 2500 is a fair price for him in his current state.

ziqing:
We all have our own perspectives, I am OK with disagreement and really appreciate your feedback. I never wish to delete hero killers' roles, they are useful under certain circumstances, maybe as you say if your opponent spam out heroes(I guess you are referring to Rohan, that may be the only possible faction with lots of statues), but these situations are rare, and this strategy will cost a lot and has huge disadvantage in army(one hero already cost resources for 2-3 hordes of units), which makes it not practical in real game, especially PVP game.
My point of this thread is, heroes are already support roles since 4.0(units are the main role), hero killers are not that important. For those heroes cost more than 2000, they are usually very important figure for their faction in the book(for example, Aragorn for men, Celeborn for Lorien, Throin for Dwarves), it seems not fair to just assign a second-class role to them. That's also why I like the role of Throin in Ered Luin, he is the core hero of his faction with some hero killer aspect(Fili and Kili), that should also applies to Aragorn and all other heroes who cost more than 2000.

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