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My thoughts on balance

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Draco100000:

--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 18. Jul 2015, 00:59 --- No units should cost 0 CP, its just not fair.

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Ungol units can be used very well in all of the game fases, being troops with high armor and damage, also without cp cost. Well keep in mind that in Late game, if you had got an equal match you must be able to have almost your entire armie with upgrades. The upgrades makes your units far away more powerfull than Ungol units  (except the ungol archers). So they arent as important as you think, also mordor always will have more troops than you if the Mordor player is playing well, because all of the troops of Mordor have less health and damage than upgraded armies of other factions like gondor or Isengard, so ungol units are core units on Mid game and support units on late game, they dont need cp cost. maybe the archers ok, but halberediers and uruks dont need cp cost, or early game with mordor will be also very difficult to them.

Adrigabbro:
I agree with Draco regarding his thoughts about early and mid game.
In addition, you're complaining that Mordor will have a bigger army in late game than everyone else; well, doesn't it make sense? I think it does.

Elite KryPtik:
You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

Walküre:

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--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 19. Jul 2015, 16:34 ---You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

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I would say that I agree with you.
Even though the sort of 'spamming' nature of Mordor has always been one of its peculiar characteristics, justified both by the lore and some iconic elements of the previous BFME games, I find it kind of exaggerated making the Cirith Ungol units so useful and easy to recruit, considering how already tough and challenging they are by themselves, particularly in the early game.
And I would add that I also find it quite unfair that significant and effective leadership powers, especially the ones of leaders of factions (like Théoden or, in the future, Elrond), are totally made ineffective by the aura of the Ringwraiths (not to mention the other effects of enhancing spells made useless as well); it would be an interesting solution making the malus of the Nazgûl kind of 'selective', effective on some types of upgrades, but useless towards others.
But I am also aware that it could create many difficult and problematic scenarios of coding issues, and, subsequently, bugs.

Draco100000:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 20. Jul 2015, 21:19 ---
--- Zitat ---
--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 19. Jul 2015, 16:34 ---You seem to be forgetting the debuffs of the Nazgul, these make enemy armies pathetically weak, even with upgrades, while also removing enemy leaderships. When combined with all of the different stackable buffs that Mordor can get(Eye, Land, Darkness, Gothmog LD, Drummer Troll LD, etc), Cirith Ungol troops and all of Mordor's other troops become extremely strong, unless there are no Nazgul around. Having the Ungol units cost CP would not affect Mordor early game at all, you'd still be able to get them, just maybe a few less battalions of orcs, depending on how fast you get Pantry upgrades. I understand that having more units than the enemy is suiting for Mordor, but looking at this from a purely balance perspective, it is not balanced to have units cost 0 CP. Hell, I think that the basic orcs should be made only 30 CP and made so weak that any unit can 1 hit them, this would allow you to get the true spammy nature of Mordor instead of OP armies with 9 battalions, or more, than your enemy. The Cirith Ungol units used to cost CP, and Mordor played just fine while it was like this. I don't really understand why that's been changed.

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I would say that I agree with you.
Even though the sort of 'spamming' nature of Mordor has always been one of its peculiar characteristics, justified both by the lore and some iconic elements of the previous BFME games, I find it kind of exaggerated making the Cirith Ungol units so useful and easy to recruit, considering how already tough and challenging they are by themselves, particularly in the early game.
And I would add that I also find it quite unfair that significant and effective leadership powers, especially the ones of leaders of factions (like Théoden or, in the future, Elrond), are totally made ineffective by the aura of the Ringwraiths (not to mention the other effects of enhancing spells made useless as well); it would be an interesting solution making the malus of the Nazgûl kind of 'selective', effective on some types of upgrades, but useless towards others.
But I am also aware that it could create many difficult and problematic scenarios of coding issues, and, subsequently, bugs.

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Have you ever  tried get an armie of standard orcs and get them for the entire match ( or at least more than 1 attack- defense) They simply die , make a bit damage and then die, so Ungol make the damage, and the orcs tank the arrows and the enemies. If you look colsely mordor matches, mordor player is the entire match getting free orcs. Why? because they die all the time, so ungol are units who support the hordes and bring you time to their recruitment, so giving ungol cp Cost you will lost your chance to get a very small advantage ( remember that Ungol requires a good planificated economy to get them, they are very expensive). And camon, Nazgul debuffs are nearly useless, you simply kick nazguls using hobbits and normal troops xD. Ungol, in the roleplaying of mordor is vital as well as it is now.

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