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Autor Thema: Elrond - Lord of Imladris  (Gelesen 107505 mal)

Walküre

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #240 am: 22. Jan 2019, 17:57 »
Yes, I might have exaggerated with bonuses. Then, let us forget about armour.

The point remains quite the same. It should explore the whole preservation theme and should even last very long, at the same time. In short: preservation and duration (Rivendell was kept safe for hundreds of years).

If the Ring influences units, heroes and buildings across the whole map, it would work quite similarly to Nenya (global range) and its effect could not last very long, due to balance. One of the revolutionary aspects of my concept is that the focus is only on one precise place, referencing the status of Imladris as a secluded, merry valley. Furthermore, any negative side-effect on enemy troops should also be avoided, because none of the Three is meant to harm or interfere (directly) with your opponent.

The idea of nullifying enemy spells and heroic abilities I consider the starting point. It is what we have connected to the act of preserving something. Such a smart implementation, I would say. Yet, I wonder if this suffices for an ultimate ability. Surely, the advantage of having a single target available (the citadel) allows for a definitely longer duration.
I would then rephrase it this way, as a sort of skeleton-concept. We can add other effects or raise values in a later moment :)

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities for a very long duration.

It means that destructive spells or weather-altering phenomena are going to be rendered useless, for a quite long time, if cast on your fortress. It signifies that, behind your walls, you won't incur grave danger.
I know that it may sound constraining, but global effects cannot last adequately and I'm even making an attempt to differentiate Vilya from Nenya. To distinguish them as it's due.

EDIT: Graphical renditions can stay the same. That is, the aforementioned 'saint-city'.
« Letzte Änderung: 22. Jan 2019, 18:12 von Walküre »

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #241 am: 22. Jan 2019, 19:05 »
Zitat
Vilya: Ring of air protects Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities for a very long duration.

Much better for now!  ;)

I'm even making an attempt to differentiate Vilya from Nenya. To distinguish them as it's due.

Me too. I forgot to mention that I'm also thinking about Rivendell exclusively.

I can imagine that Nenya affects the whole Woodland realm in Lothlorien faction, cause Lothlorien and Mirkwood elves live in the woods. The same cases are ents and beornings.

But in Imladris we have the whole Eriador, and effects of Vilya on Dunedains or Hobbits would be weird ... and Lindon kin is quite far from Rivendel on Middle-earth map  xD ... So yes - hidden sanctuary resistant to time and decay - solely Rivendell.

I think that Elrond could active Vilya normally from the distance (to avoid necessity to cast it on citadel and to be obliged to stay in one place - in the base - during the late game), cause Vilya after so many years in Rivendell is probably fixed on that place, like Nenya on Lothlorien. You know - hidden sanctuary is protected by powerful magic even when Lord of Imladris isn't present.

Don't forget that we have to rework Elrond's skillset little bit - if we're creating new ultimate ability.

So ...


Levels 1 - 5 are unchanged (I only deleted beginning of sentence of the first ability - "Elrond uses Vilya to raise").
He is supposed to be mass slayer, so I kept his current last ability and moved it on level 7.


Yes, Elrond is known healer, but technically he doesn't heal in game. It's because Imladris already has many healing options, and mainly Arwen is the ultimate healer who stole her father's traits from the lore.  :P
And Restoration now has Galadriel ...

Zitat
- Rank 5: Radiant Aid. Any hero with Gifts of Lorien on the map is immediately fully healed and all his abilities are ready to be used again.

... so for Elrond it isn't unique ability. And it quite fits for her - when we look at the movies, it was she who completely and immediately restored Frodo and Gandalf, not Elrond.
« Letzte Änderung: 23. Jan 2019, 20:29 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #242 am: 22. Jan 2019, 22:48 »
I presume we are in for a great overhaul of his skill set. Wonderful development! This thread is a literal workshop of wonders ;)

But in Imladris we have the whole Eriador, and effects of Vilya on Dunedains or Hobbits would be weird ... and Lindon kin is quite far from Rivendel on Middle-earth map  xD ... So yes - hidden sanctuary resistant to time and decay - solely Rivendell.

Correct. It makes sense on a territorial basis. Lore-wise, it's even more accurate. Rivendell stands out from the crowd as a real exception. Our implementation respects this general motif.

Great intuition about the restoration ability! I had not thought about that. It's more than reasonable to keep such feature unique, in the fair hands of the Lady. Entrusting her with said power, while retaining Elrond's whirlwind, is definitely the best solution. We save both uniqueness and the needed mass-slayer feeling in the Elven Lord's power set. Very good.
As a lesser hint, I think that Wind Armour could work better as title; we already have 'Breeze of Manwë' as spell. This would avoid possible duplications. Just a minor suggestion from me.

I'm very glad that my skeleton-concept for the Ring of Air interests you. I feel we have addressed the right thematic field to elaborate on. In order to complete the whole portrait, I guess that adding the other bonuses on troops/heroes might do. It was the other side of my initial idea. As explained above, units will be reinvigorated and able to fend off approaching assaults, very quickly. Otherwise, it would not be enough for a level-10 ability, and your adversaries could simply remain outside and bombard your base with siege weapons.

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities for a very long duration. Units and heroes also get +50% armour and +30% speed.

You're right. It's far easier to activate the Ring's power instantly, without wasting time with a selection.



It's amazing to work on the Three Rings. Narya, Nenya, and now Vilya. In the wake of the forthcoming patch, we shall (hopefully) have new Three Rings, which finally relate to the pure lore. If all goes well, of course :)


Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #243 am: 22. Jan 2019, 23:51 »
I think that Wind Armour could work better as title; we already have 'Breeze of Manwë' as spell. This would avoid possible duplications. Just a minor suggestion from me.

I used it intentionally - to connect spellbook and faction hero.  :P ... But it can be Wind shield, wind armor, whatever.

Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities for a very long duration. Units and heroes also get +50% armour and +30% speed.

Problem is that Elrond already has armour bonus for units. And concerning speed - it should work contrary ... Vilya works against time and decay - Rivendell is like bubble where time doesn't matter ... I thank that is the most important Vilya's trait. But how to get into the game is quite challenge ...

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.

After all - resistance to fire and frost munitions, and to poison, quite fit, cause Misty Mountains and Angmar represent the greatest enemies for hidden sanctuary.

« Letzte Änderung: 22. Jan 2019, 23:55 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #244 am: 23. Jan 2019, 16:34 »
Fine! Fair enough. We might thus be very close to the completion of these 'preparatory works' of ours, before submitting the concept in the professional, definitive manner that the case requires (it's a quite holistic overhaul, and it's going to affect his role, too). Moreover, I kind of sense how the success enjoyed by the Narya proposal and the recent (extraordinary) change regarding Nenya seem to bode well. I mean, quite a compelling argument for a fresh upgrade of the Three Rings ;)

I like the eventual fashion of all the effects. In fact, what is decay exactly? Mostly, I view it as the pitiless passing of time and the consequent deterioration brought about by bad weather and malevolent entities, be it fell ice, poison or other corroding adversities. A magical defence against the merciless action of these negative factors therefore strings the right chords. Marvellous solution.
I would just include magic in the list. Magic-type damage, if some enemy heroes are able to deal it via their basic attack.

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, ice, magic and poison, for a very long duration.

As said, the overall graphical display should stay the same as that suggested earlier.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #245 am: 23. Jan 2019, 16:48 »
what is decay exactly? Mostly, I view it as the pitiless passing of time and the consequent deterioration brought about by bad weather and malevolent entities, be it fell ice, poison or other corroding adversities.

Exactly! Maybe we found out what Tolkien meant by "decay" ... cause when you have an army, you can quickly storm Rivendell and Ring doesn't help you ... but decay is slow process ... and Imladris clearly was immune against bad weather, even located so near to inhospitable mountains, where Goblins with poison blades and arrows dwell.

I would just include magic in the list. Magic-type damage, if some enemy heroes are able to deal it via their basic attack.

I didn't include magic because it was already implemented via hero and spell resistance, but we completely forgot Necromancer, who can deal magic damage, or some Angmar units! Yes, in this case magic immunity should be included as well.

Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, ice, magic and poison, for a very long duration.

So we have it for now!  :)

As said, the overall graphical display should stay the same as that suggested earlier.

Of course! Another great recyclation!

We have typical Edain sickness - we're trying to find easiest solutions how to implement something or keep things from the past in the game, we're still reworking something rather than creating entirely new concepts, and we love movies and prefer movie designs, but still want to be loyal to books when something is wrong in the game and movies can't help us. We're "bounded by Edain" ...  xD
« Letzte Änderung: 23. Jan 2019, 17:01 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #246 am: 23. Jan 2019, 17:14 »
I know, it's quite tricky. In this case, neither LOTR films nor the Hobbit trilogy delved deep in the lore of the Three Rings, if we count the Dol Guldur quest out (and, still, the way they handled those Rings in those scenes was pretty nebulous). So, our lovely books were there to avail our mission 8-)
I myself am reading the whole LOTR at the moment, for the first time ever in my life, and in English. Curious coincidence.

Besides, there is a very secondary matter to deal with: which kind of icon picture would you like him to have, as for Wind Armour (or Manwë's Gale)? An idea could be the classic BFME cartoonish tornado, but I might craft one from scratch. Elemental abilities often produce great icons (see the Twilight Queen).


Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #247 am: 23. Jan 2019, 17:44 »
which kind of icon picture would you like him to have, as for Wind Armour (or Manwë's Gale)? An idea could be the classic BFME cartoonish tornado, but I might craft one from scratch. Elemental abilities often produce great icons (see the Twilight Queen).


It's up to you. We can even recyclate some pictures which will be gone in the upcoming patch:

« Letzte Änderung: 23. Jan 2019, 20:28 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #248 am: 23. Jan 2019, 18:32 »
What you guys proposed is really good, as it depicts Elrond's magical nature and power. But, I think what could make Vilya even better would be if it had a use in the offensive part of the game as well. Almost all other faction leaders' ultimate ability is useful in every situation, be it when someone is defending their base or attacking the enemy's. Furthermore, by the time Elrond is recruited and reaches level 10, a player is most probably defending their outpost and not their castle. So what if this effect would be added in addition to what both of you proposed:

"Replaces one fallen unit of every horde on the battlefield."

This is a different form of healing in comparison to Nenya's, something that retains the uniqueness the Edain Team is trying to achieve in the 4.5 patch as well as making Vilya useful in the late game, when the player is attacking the enemy's base. Usually, one mere unit does not make the difference, but in Imladris' case, a faction with only 5 units per batallion, it seems kinda useful. What is your opinion on this?

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #249 am: 23. Jan 2019, 19:07 »
"Replaces one fallen unit of every horde on the battlefield."

It quite goes against our arguments how to use Vilya  xD ... But mainly such ability fits to Misty Mountains aggresive gameplay ... and as you can see their heroes already have similar abilities: https://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #250 am: 23. Jan 2019, 19:44 »
First and foremost, thanks for joining the debate, Fellowship :)

Well, I'm very glad to read about your thoughtfully pondered ideas; and I see your points very clearly. I fear such implementation would not suit the general premise of our proposal, though. I'll illustrate why ;)

One strong argument, pretty much the copy of one I've already gone through, is that whatever global effect would force the ability to last less and be reduced in general effectiveness. Second, an even stronger reason is that Imladris is presently well full of healing and replenishing tools, whether it be healing structures (or wall extensions), spells or Arwen's own distinctive role (her banner is formidable, under this perspective). I'm aware of the distinction between healing and replenishing, but the demarcation line seems often to be quite blurred, I tell you.

The concept itself suffers a bit from being exclusively bound to the base and extreme support. Nevertheless, we could argue that its inherent usefulness and strength lie exactly in its unprecedented scale of protection. Being the leader of the faction, I think an unusually defensive ability will suit the Lord of the Valley better, as Galadriel is by herself a unique heroine, too (while in her normal form). In this specific situation, I believe uniqueness and brilliant mechanics should prevail over sheer balance. That is, these two High Elves will not follow common gameplay guidelines. They're exceptional, simply said.

Additionally, don't forget that Rivendell would not fall short of devastating features anyway. Elrond will retain his whirlwind (we may suggest higher damage) and the Last Alliance spell offers you a wide of range of choices: you get to play with the Conqueror of Mordor and wield the Lance of the Firmament, which wreaks astonishing destruction (I tested it and I was positively shocked) 8-)

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #251 am: 23. Jan 2019, 20:55 »
Thank you both for your answers. :)

I see your points and of course I get why you do not opt for a global effect for Vilya in order to differentiate it from the recently presented astonishing effect of Nenya. If the Last Alliance spell is going to be this effective against enemy bases then, yes, we could use some magical defense through Elrond's Ring of Power.

As regards his whirlwind ability, I certainly agree with enhancing its damage.

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #252 am: 24. Jan 2019, 16:29 »
As regards his whirlwind ability, I certainly agree with enhancing its damage.

Sure. It could be either longer or deal more damage; or both ;)

Anyhow, Tiberius, I think it's time we formalised the concept in a new thread. This huge topic, the noblest and one of the oldest, has served us well to gather ideas and re-order scattered suggestions here and there. Then, as done likewise in regards to Narya, with great success, I would like to proceed with crystallising the concept in a definitive form, kind of. Afterwards, users will be able to express themselves in favour or against said proposal, and last-minute additions/details will be allowed nonetheless. If only, we shall have a very precise and complete source to refer to, and present to the community.

The sooner, the better, also. I've learnt that forwarding things too late can have unpleasant repercussions. We have ample evidence on MU.

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #253 am: 24. Jan 2019, 17:40 »
Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.
Technically not possible, sorry.

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Re: Elrond - Lord of Imladris
« Antwort #254 am: 24. Jan 2019, 17:48 »
Zitat
Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.
Technically not possible, sorry.

This saddens me a lot, really :(

In this case, immunity from decay should be portrayed differently. I'm thinking about full invincibility for all structures and heroes/units inside the base, though the relative timer will necessarily have to go down.

EDIT: Thanks for the technical insight anyway :)
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Jan 2019, 17:59 von Walküre »