Elrond - Lord of Imladris

[Tiberius Ogden]

I think it's time we formalised the concept in a new thread.

I would stay here, after all we're only reworking one ability and second ability (whirlwind) we just moved below. And don't forget that we're in the longest English suggestion thread! 

Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to enemy spells and heroic abilities, as well as to fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.

Technically not possible, sorry.

Thanks for the insight! Where is the problem? That it's resctricted solely for castle or that it's immune to spells and heroic abilities?

It would help us in which way to lead thread now. 

[Walküre]

Fair enough. It means that I will nonetheless edit the very first page, provided that we manage to overcome the whole 'Vilya case'

If we take that definition of decay for accurate, invincibility does not come across as a bad idea. Still, I'm waiting for further information on technical issues.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Restricting an ability to a castle is entirely possible (see Angmar's ultimate spell ), but making your units/structures/allies/pet mûmak immune to all kinds of hostile abilities isn't.

[Tiberius Ogden]

I forgot Stronghold of the Iron Crown spell, which is restricted to main base. Vilya effect only on base wouldn't be unique.

We can return to global effect, but global effect solely on Rivendell (main base, Imladris farms outside and all units/heroes). Not Hobbits, Lindon and Dunedains.

So here we go again ... 

Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All Imladris buildings, units and heroes are immune to magic, fire, frost and poison, for a very long duration.

[Walküre]

I was about to reiterate the option of temporary invincibility for everything lying within the perimeter of the base. That's the problem, though: the effect would be very temporary...

I agree on the global effect, then. Only, I think we should highlight the fact that its duration should be moderately long

[Tiberius Ogden]

I agree on the global effect, then. Only, I think we should highlight the fact that its duration should be moderately long

Do you know what would be unique and fit to Vilya's protective long term effect? To make it passive.

Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, units and heroes within the castle are immune to magic, fire, frost and poison. (Passive).

It would clearly distinguish Vilya from two other rings and restricted effect only to hidden sanctuary. Permanent effect would also be loyal to books.

There is one problem - Elrond already has one passive skill, second would be boring.

Edit: I got it. What about make it active/passive?

Vilya: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. Imladris buildings, units and heroes are immune to fire, frost and poison. While active, all faction forces and structures are resistant to magic for a long time.

Now it seems quite worthy of ultimate ability of faction hero. In terms of power it's comparable with Nenya, maybe it's even stronger, after all we're talking about the mightiest of the three, according to Tolkien.

So ... you have the green light! Rework first page, show the whole skillset, highlight reworked ultimate ability and our arguments behind it, add some pictures ... just typical walls of text, nothing more.

[Walküre]

Marvellous ideas! This thread is a real forge of fantastic concepts

Look, I'm literally torn inside between two major options. I haven't wrapped my head around a final solution yet. I hope we'll be able to call it a satisfying end, very soon. Before listing the two, I have taken the liberty to rule out the active/passive hypothesis, as it seems to me that it somehow halves the potential of the ability and separates aspects that should instead exist together (on equal terms).

1. Your previous idea is actually very revolutionary, and incredibly unique. A passive influence, therefore perpetual, would fit Vilya the best. Only, unfortunately, you've also identified the main implications which such rendition would cause:
- He would have two passive abilities in his skill set.
- The Ring of Air would inevitably end up being boring.
- There wouldn't be many grandiose graphical effects we could find (I infer that people would not like to have their own castle/camp permanently illuminated).
- All in all, it would not be appealing, to say the least.

2. The second option, mind, is probably the boldest one. Much bolder than inherently unique. Nonetheless, I'm sure it would fare overwhelmingly well; what players would fancy and appreciate a good deal. Hence, let us retrieve from the void a dismissed concept:

Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All Elven buildings, heroes and units will be blessed with temporary invincibility.

As you may see, nothing so intricate or complex. Just the past prowess of Nenya, albeit applied globally.
- This concept respects the definition of decay we had discussed together, granting full protection from enemy spells, hero abilities, attacks (all natures) and whatsoever hostile act. Ergo: immunity.
- The Ring would in this way be enormously satisfying to use. A worthy, decent, magnificent level-10 ability.
- As you may have noticed, only Elves are affected. Rangers, Hobbits, Elendil, Isildur (and so forth) are thereby excluded.
- Duration is the weak point of the situation. It necessarily has to remain short, for the sake of balance. 20 seconds, I suppose.
- Regardless of time, here is another utmost argument: Vilya would finally be the ruling Ring among the Three. The mightiest of the Three Rings, gifted with the strongest supportive feature in the whole game

By consequence, in light of Vilya and Wind Armour, Elrond's price should be reasonably raised to 3000 resources, which is the maximum value for a hero. If we consider that he's one of the wisest, most experienced characters in the lore, that would make for a stunning improvement. A landmark overhaul, to be sure.

[Tiberius Ogden]

Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All Elven buildings, heroes and units will be blessed with temporary invincibility.

Be wary, players would turn it to offensive-siege ability, although we want to make it clearly protective. That's why invulnerability effect was removed from Nenya:

not march through any and all damage with an invincible army. If anything, that sounds more like a Dwarven thing!

So ... I've returned to main base idea (only hidden sanctuary as we wanted), but stressed long term effect aginst decay:

Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within the main base will be blessed with invincibility for a long period. Does not affect the walls and their defensive options as well as a gate.

It would mean that walls and gate are normally vulnerable to siege machines, but when enemy breaks through ... they'll see that what is hidden behind the walls is protected from decay by powerful magic of the mightiest of the three. 

It would make spell balanced and yet interesting to use.

[Walküre]

I know, that's quite a tough aspect to work on. Given its global range, Nenya could too (theoretically) serve an offensive strategy, although healing does not equal to having an almighty army at your service and smashing through your enemy's defence. I just wanted to mirror the Ring of Water, while choosing more powerful effects. Anyway, the relative timer would be too short nonetheless.

Fine, let us go back to our two conceptual pillars: invincibility and duration

I agree with the sanctuary-like rendition. Only, I can't see the point of excluding walls and akin fortifications from the equation. I think it would spoil the concept a bit, and your opponent could not be able to vanquish your forces either way, as long as you stay in your base. If you reflect on it, walls equally play a crucial role in the defence of a settlement. It would be unwise of us, in case we did without them. Consider things conceptually: a supreme, benevolent, and extremely defence-focused Ring of Power that doesn't protect walls? I would personally leave it as it should be, without such constraints. I'll explain why it wouldn't break balance, in my opinion:
- As we concurred, Vilya will be strictly tied to your main base. In so doing, we have a kind of one-sided feature; a one-way ability. That is, you can't use it for offensive purposes or for besieging enemy castles/camps. No offence, apart from the perimeter of your base (which is self-defence, by the way).
- As long as you remain behind your ring of walls, you shall be safe and sound. Once left the base, the blessing will be gone.
- It follows that the player will have to judge carefully whether the comfort of Imladris is more advantageous than launching an assault. In case one opted for keeping units inside, the initiative would be on the other side of the pitch. Obviously, the ability cannot last forever, and it would already be immensely useful to know that your base will resist any kind of hostile manoeuvres (while being away and busy with attacking your enemy); this is the advantage of the feature, though.
- Put in these terms, Vilya would match its lore and own position in the Three Rings-related hierarchy.

Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within your base are blessed with invincibility for a long duration.

I strongly believe this version fits the canons better.

Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise, and few even of the Eldar knew where they were bestowed. Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time.

***

In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured.

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

NOTE: I still think he should be made a 3000-resource hero. That's reasonable, balance-wise.

[Tiberius Ogden]

I still think he should be made a 3000-resource hero. That's reasonable, balance-wise.

All faction leaders (Gandalf, Saruman, Agmar's WK, Galadriel, and probably Smaug) cost 3 000. Elrond should definitely correspond with them.
Mighty Elf lord is even cheaper with current price 2 500 than Dain and Thorin who cost 2 600.

So one thing how to balance such powerful ability is to make him more expensive so we suggest +500 to total 3 000.
And second thing how to "weaken him" is already implemented - he has "horse skill", it means that he has only three active abilities and one passive.

Everybody knows that "horse for Elrond" campaign was my and Tienety's idea in the past ... and Elrond eventually truly got a horse.

But our arguments why we wanted him to mount horse were misunderstood. We said give him a horse in order to make rest of the abilities cool and strong. But it didn't happen - because heal was removed from his skillset and wind shield isn't wothy of ultimate ability of the faction hero.

Vilya's Blessing: Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within your base are blessed with invincibility for a long duration.

So when we implement this, we'll also finish his rework which we started four years ago, but sadly stopped somewhere between level 7 and 10.

[Walküre]

So when we implement this, we'll also finish his rework which we started four years ago, but sadly stopped somewhere between level 7 and 10.

It was great to work on the Three Rings once again; very refreshing. Thanks for having revived the debate. I hope all shall go well.

I have updated the first post: https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31323.msg400237.html#msg400237

The complete concept

Fond greetings to all, dear attendees of this long, ancient and glorious thread. You may be wondering which purpose this venerable topic can still serve, and I shall answer it immediately: to complete the design of our beloved Lord of Imladris

It has been a long and eventful journey. A wonderful experience for everyone involved in such lively debate. Our proposals have already produced meaningful changes, but the portrait is still half-complete. Therefore, Tiberius and I are very glad to present a final comprehensive proposal for Elrond's skill set!

Before I showcase the whole ensemble, let us go through the main arguments that have informed our little 'quest':

1. We believe that Elrond should be given more attention, as the other major heroes of the game. That is, his price should be raised to 3000 resources and will so match his own stature as one of the wisest beings in Middle-earth; valiant commander of hosts, master of all manners of lore and arts, and descendant of the noblest bloodline in all tales of Arda.

His bending of natural elements corresponds nicely and very evocatively with the own magical connotation of lore-masters, who are endowed with the knowledge and ancient wisdom connected to elemental charms.

2. His mass-slayer characterisation ought to be highlighted even more, since the very hero is supposed to be portrayed as such. With the latest addition of Galadriel's Radiant Aid, his restoration ability should go, as rejuvenating magic befits the Lady of Light much better. Moreover, Arwen already provides the player with every healing/replenishing tool he might be in need of.

We're aware of the fact that his story entails a number of other themes: wisdom (experience-lending), clairvoyance (vision) and healing. However, it's not possible to explore every single one of his sides; the major issue haunting his current design is exactly embodied by his unfocused characterisation. Too many elements resulting in a confused ensemble. That's why we no longer want him to be a 'mix man' (Tiberius Ogden™), but rather an excellent mass-slayer.

Note that Elrond's Edain-type restoration is NOT the vanilla restoration. His current restoration refreshes abilities only, without replenishing health. Thus, the healing component is already out of sight.

3. His mount has already been implemented and the past (outlandish) 3.8.1 mobile tornado had been fixed as well, at the time of the release of 4.4. However, on the eve of the oncoming 4.5 era, it is no longer enough. His last two abilities need to be corrected once and for all, in order to reach a very decent outcome.

4. Getting the lore of the Three Rings right, in the game, has been an enormous drive for us. Surely, an imperative goal. My antique concept regarding Nenya has eventually been accepted; I hope that my other proposals involving Narya and Vilya will flourish likewise. The fundamental pillar sustaining our ideas is this: the Three Rings were forged unbeknownst to Sauron, thereby remaining utterly untainted, and later used to slow decay and preserve the craft of the Elves from the passing of time. The foremost themes are therefore preservation and protection. It wasn't always so in Edain, and that's why we feel that the upcoming patch can be the best occasion to represent the Three as it's due

ELROND

Level 1: Rage of the Loudwater - Elrond raises the waters of the Bruinen in defence of his people, summoning a powerful flood in the form of a mighty horse to crush enemies in the target area. At levels 3, 5, 7, and 10, an additional flood horse appears (maximum 5). Left click to activate.

Level 3: Mount - Elrond mounts or dismounts his horse.

Level 5: Ancient Equipment - Elrond draws his old sword Hadhafang and puts on his battle armour. Elrond permanently gains +25% armour and inflicts area-of-effect damage. Units in his vicinity also gain +25% armour. (Passive ability)

Level 7: Wuthering Gale - Elrond summons a raging whirlwind around himself which will heavily damage surrounding enemy units, knocking them down and drawing them towards Elrond. Left click to activate.

Level 10: Vilya's Blessing - Vilya shields Rivendell from decay and evil. All buildings, heroes and units within your base are blessed with invincibility for a long duration.

Vilya's graphical rendition: The very display of the ability will have to signal that your castle (Rivendell on smaller scale) has indeed been sanctified, alongside the visual similarity to the stainless harbour of the Lonely Island.
For all the duration, every building (walls included) and unit/hero will shine of a bright, heavenly light, while another radiant beam will be on the main citadel, as a miracle from heaven. Perhaps, we might even add some ethereal, fitting sounds in the background (smooth and mesmerising).

Vilya will be strictly tied to your main base. In so doing, we have a kind of one-sided feature; a one-way ability. That is, you can't use it for offensive purposes or for besieging enemy castles/camps. No offence, apart from the perimeter of your base (which is self-defence, by the way). As long as you remain behind your ring of walls, you shall be safe and sound. Once left the base, the blessing will be gone. It follows that the player will have to judge carefully whether the comfort of Imladris is more advantageous than launching an assault. In case one opted for keeping units inside, the initiative would be on the other side of the pitch.

The Ring of Air shall offer the ultimate defence against decay. In fact, what is decay exactly? Mostly, I view it as the pitiless passing of time and the consequent deterioration brought about by bad weather and malevolent entities, be it fell ice, poison or other corroding adversities, not to mention destruction and physical damages deriving from assaults and sieges.
A magical defence against the merciless action of these negative factors therefore strings the right chords. Marvellous solution. Invincibility nullifies the harm and sorrow come from every aforesaid implication.

We are of the definitive opinion that the aforementioned design not only does justice to a legendary, high-kindred leader of a faction, but it overall suits the canons very accurately. Vilya rendered Imladris an immaculate sanctuary, unscathed by time and decadence. And this the Ring had been doing for several centuries, until the very valley became a paler reflection of Eressëa itself. Hence, here is another fundamental component of the concept: a paradise on earth.

Of the Three Rings that the Elves had preserved unsullied no open word was ever spoken among the Wise, and few even of the Eldar knew where they were bestowed. Yet after the fall of Sauron their power was ever at work, and where they abode there mirth also dwelt and all things were unstained by the griefs of time.

***

In that time the stronghold and refuge of Imladris, that Men called Rivendell, was founded by Elrond Half-elven; and long it endured.

J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

[Tiberius Ogden]

After Galadriel, you now really feel power of Elrond. We highlighted his relevance in the faction, which is something what completely lacks in the current version, and made from Elrond mighty warrior (mass slayer) and ultimate protector of his sanctuary (through Vilya).
Lore master who can summon natural elements (Water and Air) against enemies, while using pure elven magic from the ring to protect his kin. And still experienced fighter who leads elves into the battle.

[OakenShield224]

I do like this idea a lot. I guess if I had to say one thing I'm not sure about, it would be the removal of Elrond's classic Restoration, but I'm willing to look past that if there is a worthy replacement which this is. I assume the ability wouldn't affect Imladris outposts, but what about any other castles or camps that the player builds beyond their starting one?

[Julio229]

Agreed with Oak, I'm not too sure about Restoration going but it seems to have a nice replacement, this is a pretty good idea!

[Tiberius Ogden]

it would be the removal of Elrond's classic Restoration, but I'm willing to look past that if there is a worthy replacement which this is.

Agreed with Oak, I'm not too sure about Restoration going

I was also not sure about removing Restoration, but now that Elrond's ultimate spell is finalized, I believe that its replacement is even more satisfying and much more fun to use.

Firstly - Elrond currently doesn't have classic Restoration. Classic vanilla restoration means healing plus refreshing abilities of heroes. But Elrond doesn't heal, only refreshes.
Secondly - Classic restoration through the gifts in the upcoming version will have Galadriel. For Elrond it isn't longer unique.
Thirdly - Hero and unit healer role already has Arwen. She is pretty clear hero/unit supporter.
Fourthly - Elrond is mass slayer with unit support aspect. Current restoration makes from him also hero supporter, which is quite unfocused skillset.

I assume the ability wouldn't affect Imladris outposts, but what about any other castles or camps that the player builds beyond their starting one?

It would affect others as well (castles and camps) otherwise I can't imagine how it would work - you will lose starting base and continues fight with other castle/camp. Ability would be useless in that moment.
But either way there will be quite a long cooldown for such ability.