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Autor Thema: Elrond - Lord of Imladris  (Gelesen 106731 mal)

ziqing

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #45 am: 16. Jul 2015, 16:51 »
About Vilya: I am considering a leadership or power related to the Elemental Mage of Imladris.
About armor: Have you considered relating his golden armor to Elladan and Elrohir? They could still enter the forge and strengthen Imladris heroes in 3.8.1, keep this function, and let them upgrade Elrond's hunting armor to golden battle armor

Tienety

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #46 am: 16. Jul 2015, 17:28 »
And I hold my point that the "mounted/dismounted" toggle will be a total waste for Erlond's power set, you claim that Imladris will be the second horse-related faction after Rohan, I don't know how many inside information you have from the team. Imladris already have two heroes to fight alongside the cavalry, it doesn't need a third one. And I am pretty sure Imladris will rely on the infantry just as most other faction, cavalry will always be a support force in battlefield. Elrond should always fight alongside the main force of Imladris, following his fighting style from original game. The same reason why we shouldn't give Boromir a horse.

I don't see problem if Imladris will have three heroes with horses. Elrond is the leader of Imladris riders in movie. In addition, you can still choose If Elrond will lead infantry or riders.
Gondor is similar like Imladris, also has strong infantry and cavalry. Boromir does not needs a horse, because already Aragorn, Faramir, Gandalf and Imrahil have horses in Gondor. If Aragorn can have horse as powerful infantry hero, why not Elrond?  8-)

ziqing

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #47 am: 16. Jul 2015, 17:33 »
Because it will take a precious power slot. I am not a huge fan for Aragorn's mounted either.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #48 am: 16. Jul 2015, 17:50 »
just put 2 palantirs

helloa2134

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #49 am: 16. Jul 2015, 17:53 »
The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions

Tienety

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #50 am: 16. Jul 2015, 17:57 »
The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions
Maybe he could have one or more different abilities on his horse. A few other heroes has a similar system. :P

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #51 am: 16. Jul 2015, 18:22 »
I said I wouldn't agrue on the lore about the three ring anymore, I just want to mention the fact that the more power we associate with the three the more we violate the lore, that'all.

I don't like the name "restoration of Vilya" one bit, it is true all the three has the use of "healing and preservation", but Vilya has nothing particularly to do with healing, if it works for "restoration of Vilya" then we could also have "restoration of Nenya/Narya", if we have to associate power with Vilya, it should be something else. There are always speculations that Vilya could be used to control natural element to some extent, that's why I could accept the tornado power from the previous version to be related to Vilya. Maybe with more tactical use instead of purely destruction.


It's true that we are still talking about a game, but the lore should always be regarded as  the main source and inspiration of everything.
As you had rightly written before, the Three Rings were made with the purpose of slowing the ineluctable decay of the World and the flow of Time, allowing the Elves to remain for other more than 3 millennia in Middle Earth, having all their creations/realms (Rivendell and the Golden Wood) untainted by Time and evil influences.
These are fundamental things, and I think that they shouldn't be just taken as irrevelant elements.

Given these solid lore facts, Narya has already a supporting power, Nenya will indeed protect Lothlórien, and Vilya should be naturally focused on healing and restoring your units/heroes and your allies' ones, just like every weary stranger can find peace and calmness in Rivendell.

It's true that even Elrond has powerful magical powers on Nature, but he mainly uses them to protect Rivendell (even though it never suffered heavy assaults from evil creatures) and make it a holy and safe sanctuary/shelter, to the point of resembling the Splendour of Eressëa and Eldamar in Middle Earth (and it's an incredible and mighty ability, considering how dark and dangerous is the late Third Age).
Elrond only uses his powers in a 'violent' way when he saves Frodo, creating a flood, and this power is already implemented.
That's why the whirlwind power of Elrond, even though it is an iconic ability from BFME2, doesn't fit with his character, because he is not a sorcerer, and doesn't use magic in that way.

#OnlyGaladrielCan :P


TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #52 am: 16. Jul 2015, 19:13 »
About Vilya: I am considering a leadership or power related to the Elemental Mage of Imladris.
Just help us invent something more suitable for Vilya in order to correspond to the rest of elven rings, this thread is still open for discussion. :P

About armor: Have you considered relating his golden armor to Elladan and Elrohir? They could still enter the forge and strengthen Imladris heroes in 3.8.1, keep this function, and let them upgrade Elrond's hunting armor to golden battle armor
I don't know if it remains, but mainly - such function is for weapons and not for armour.

The team has said they do not want heroes to have more than one palantir in 4.0.  I think the Mouth of Sauron and Sauron are the only exceptions
Exactly, in order to be easier to play and for balance as well. Mouth of Sauron, Gorthaur or Arnor prince have two palantirs only technically, but in reality it isn't second palantir as a advantage, but they simply need it for their roles - transformation palantir for Gorthaur, Dunedain/prince switch for Aranath etc ...  but in the game, there is no hero, who has two palantirs as a advantage, except of Sauron with the One Ring, but Sauron has something better. 8-)

I don't see problem if Imladris will have three heroes with horses. Elrond is the leader of Imladris riders in movie. In addition, you can still choose If Elrond will lead infantry or riders.
Gondor is similar like Imladris, also has strong infantry and cavalry. Boromir does not needs a horse, because already Aragorn, Faramir, Gandalf and Imrahil have horses in Gondor. If Aragorn can have horse as powerful infantry hero, why not Elrond?  8-)
Well, it's extremely strong argument. I completely agree. :P
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Jul 2015, 19:23 von TiberiusOgden »

LordMaus

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #53 am: 16. Jul 2015, 19:25 »
what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty


Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #54 am: 16. Jul 2015, 19:28 »
about the rings of power i think it will be best as an upgrade to enhance the camp somehow

what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty


the elfs in the picture is Círdan has Narya Gil-galad has Vilya and Galadriel has Nenya
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Jul 2015, 19:43 von TiberiusOgden »

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #55 am: 16. Jul 2015, 19:42 »
what is the name of 3rd elven race ( one is imladris , second one is mirkwood, what about 3rd one from the picture below, the third hand ) ? ty

I hope that you are talking about elven races or elven nationalities, because I suppose that is obvious who are bearers of Elven rings of power and where they are living. 8-| xD

It isn't easy to say.

Imladris -  last refuge of Noldor elves
Woodland realm - Sindar (Thranduil, Legolas) and Silvan elves (Non canon Tauriel for instance)
Lorien - Sindar (Celeborn) and Silvan elves and Gladys as the highest ranking member of Noldor in the Middle-Earth.

And concerning Lindon - Cirdan is Sindar, but I think that there are some Noldor elves as well.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Jul 2015, 20:15 von TiberiusOgden »

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #56 am: 16. Jul 2015, 21:28 »


Imladris -  last refuge of Noldor elves
Woodland realm - Sindar (Thranduil, Legolas) and Silvan elves (Non canon Tauriel for instance)
Lorien - Sindar (Celeborn) and Silvan elves and Gladys as the highest ranking member of Noldor in the Middle-Earth.

And concerning Lindon - Cirdan is Sindar, but I think that there are some Noldor elves as well.

Good points, and furthermore:

Eressëa - Teleri (the same group of Sindar and Woodland Elves), most specifically Falmari.

Eldamar - Falmari, mostly Noldor (remnant of the Royal Family, guided by Galadriel's father Finarfin).

Valinor - A few Noldor, mostly Vanyar with Maiar and Valar  :)

Eldalf

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #57 am: 17. Jul 2015, 11:12 »
You are all forgetting something. There are three roles Elrond has in the lore. He is a healer par excellence. He is bearer of the most powerful of the elven rings. And he is the loremaster of the Noldor, in whose blood lingers the mighty power of the house of Fingolphin, of Elu, and of Melian the Maiar, the powerful sorceress who taught Galadrial the arts of sorcery.

Thus it does stand to reason that Elrond should have powerful sorceries, and there are two sources for "magic"in Tolkien. There are the natural abilities of the Maiar and to a lesser extent the elves, and then there is the learned knowledge of the Noldor. Finrod for instance engaged in a battle of sorcerous songs with Sauron, and Melian, kept the woodland realm more or less impervious to Melko/Melkor/Morgoth. I think it is important to remember that Rivendell is much like the woodland realm in beriland, and Elrond's powers should be like that, a powerful defensive endurance but like the veil of Melian, it should be tied to the buildings of Imaldras. Leave the tornado itself alone and instead move the flood to be a power of the Imaldras fortress that is used when Elrond is garrisoned inside. Ramp up the power a bit, but limit the range, to let Rivendell as a faction be capable of being a defensive faction. Rivendell as the last refuge should be just that, a faction that you bleed through the nose to overcome.

In a way consider Rivendell to be a counterpart to Lothlorien, Lothlorien passively resists and endures the changes of the world, but in Rivendell, there is an active fight back against change. Consider also, the major effect of Vilya on the world was that over Rivendell the stars were brighter. This is something considerably more powerful than Nenya merely resisting change, or Narya inspiring hope, this is turning back time!

For Vilya itself, let the power be that Elrond is able to know what moves, give him the omniscence power from Cirdan. This fits both thematically with Elrond and his powers of foresight, and with Elrond as a support hero.


Before you say anything about the relativeness between Galadrial and Elrond, consider the important distinction, when Tolkien discusses the might of Galadrial, he calls her the greatest of the Noldo left in Middle Earth. Elrond is not actually a Noldo. Most of his Elven blood is Telri. His father was the son of a man and a Noldo princess, however, his mother was the great granddaughter of Melian and Elu. Thus how can Elrond be a Noldo, if he is only quarter Noldo, quarter man, and half Grey Elf?

What does all this mean in relative terms, well consider all of this in conjunction. Elrond is the lorekeeper, the holder of the last refuge, and the eldest of those who bore the blood of children of Illuver. He was in wisdom unsurpassed. Wise in all lore is master Elrond. Is it to much to consider that he does have a role as a sorcerer on the field? Yes he does not tear down the walls of Dol Guldor, however, is that to say he is not capable? I like the tornado, it shows a homage to the idea that the lore master might actually be able to turn the world on it's head and it deserves to remain out of consideration for that. For all we know it might simply be a matter akin to Voldermort having powers that Dumbledore does not, it is not that they are not availiable, it is that Dumbledore is not willing to use them. Likewise, how can we know that if war really came a knocking on Elrond's precious refuge that he would not have struck out with all the collective knowledge of the mysteries of the ages he had collected.

On another note, a powerful suggestion for Elrond for vilya would be add a series of passive abilities, which share the one palantiar slot. These abilities decrease ability recharge times for all nearby units and heroes as well as increasing passive healing rates and periodically regenerate missing battalion members. Let this be a sign of Vilya pushing back time to increase the beauty and wonder of the world!

Oh and on the topic of the three rings, while the elven rings did not enhance the wearer, they did require the wearer to already possess power of their own.

Furthermore, you can see the three rings powers more along the lines of this"

Narya, the rekindler. Narya essentially is the fire that renews, much in the way a forest fire renews the land. It encourages the natural regrowth of what is already there.
In this way you see it with Gandalf and Cirdan, Cirdan gives the ring to Gandalf to rekindle the hearts of men, which implies it is to encourage the regrowth of what were the natural abilities of men.

Nenya, the endurer. Nenya is about being resistant to change, it is like water, no matter how much you interfere with it, it always remains the same.
Again this is visible in Lorien, which stands almost against time, it is not a matter of being able to resist change, it is matter of being almost immune to it, Lorien is like a place frozen in time.

Vilya- the renewer. Vilya represents the remaking of the old as new. In this way it is like the wind, or the air, they always remain, even the new will be as the old.
Vilya makes Rivendell the ancient world of the stars in the third age of the sun. It unamkes the darkness of arda marred to restore to middle earth the majesty of what once was. It is clearly the greatest of the three rings, and certainly represents the dearest dream of Celembrior, to remake the world of the elder days in the now. 
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Jul 2015, 12:29 von TiberiusOgden »

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #58 am: 17. Jul 2015, 12:37 »

So much things to say about your comment... But I promise to synthesise a bit  xD

Elrond, along with his twin brother Elros, descends indeed from an extraordinary bloodline of legendary characters that have changed and eternally marked the First Age of Arda, and all the history of the World, since, as we know, from Elrond/Elros' bloodline has descended the mighty and legendary  Númenóreans, the ancestors of the people of Arnor and Gondor in the Third Age.
Elrond has in his blood the power and the spirit of the mighty House of Fingolfin of the Noldor (being him the grandson of Idril, daughter of Turgon, the King of Gondolin) and the one of the famous Edain Houses (from Tuor); on the side of his mother, then, Elrond descends from Beren and Lúthien, and thus indirectly from the legendary High King of the Teleri, Elwë, and even from the Maia Melian.
Elrond thus is indeed, as you wrote, one of the most powerful and wise character in Middle Earth, also for his difficult childhood as a prisoner/then-pupil of Maedhros and Maglor (sons of Fëanor), during the terrible and destructive (although victorious) War of Wrath , a war that he, as he says during the Council of Rivendell, has directly experienced.

So, having said all those crucial and important things, it's important, though, not to give and attribute to Elrond powers and knowledge that he doesn't have.
Before I start, I want to make a fundamental premise; as I wrote before, Elrond, for his incredible past and story, is indeed one of the most powerful and wisest beings in Middle Earth in the Third Age.
BUT, there are also other facts (both about the lore and the game's mechanics) that it is crucial to examine:

- Rivendell was indeed, as you wrote, made more beautiful and sacred by the action of Vilya, almost reaching the Splendour of Lands/Realms beyond the Sea like Eressëa or Eldamar, because Elrond's Ring is the most powerful among the Three, and has thus a greater effect.
But, apart the Splendour achieved, Rivendell was not under constant threat and attacks during the War of the Ring, and its defensive 'facilities' were not so extensive and 'impressive', since it was more a holy shelter of Calmness and Wisdom of a few Noldor that still lingered in the World.
Lothlórien, on the other hand, is a different matter.
The Golden Wood was made by the powers of Galadriel a Timeless and sacred sanctuary/realm of neverending Joy, but this place also remained completely untainted by any form of evil (from Mordor or Dol Guldur) for more than 3 millennia, because Galadriel constantly continued to fend off the evil powers of Sauron, that, instead, had spreaded throughout all the Lands of Middle Earth, directly or not.
The Sky on the Golden Wood, though, remained always calm and sunny, and the place itself became a sort of legend, almost a mysterious and quite unreachable place even for the Elves of Mirkwood themselves, as Legolas tells the Fellowship; while we couldn't say the same about Rivendell.
Galadriel (with her powers, not only with the ones of Nenya), then, protected and repulsed three heavy assaults from Dol Guldur, leading eventually her realm to Victory.

- Galadriel, for her essence, personal story and powers, is definitely more powerful, greater and wiser than Elrond.
Elrond was born at the end of the First Age, while Galadriel was born during the Years of the Trees in Valinor before the Sun and the Moon, as a direct member of the powerful and legendary Royal Family of the Noldor, personally taught by the Maiar and the Valar; she has personally experienced the apex of the Splendour of Valinor before its Darkening, and captured the source of this Splendour, the holy Light of the Two Trees, in her hair.
Elrond didn't see that Light and will never do it; even if Elrond descends from a legendary bloodline, this doesn't immediately grant him immense powers, since Power is also the sum of Experience, Past Memories and Age.
Galadriel, that already in Aman was indicated as the most powerful elf maiden of the Noldor (and we surely know that at that time the standards of Power were immensely high), she then became a scholar of Melian in Beleriand, was the only one member of the Noldorin Royal Family to survive the War of the Jewels and her powers gradually increased during the Second and the Third Age.
Her natural powers are thus far greater than the ones of Elrond, because his powers are different, focused more on Healing/Restoration, rather than direct Protection or unleashing destructive natural powers with Magic.
The line of Tolkien you referred to is very indicative and essential, Galadriel is the greatest of the Noldor,reaching also the Might and Importance of Fëanor himself; she is, according Tolkien's words, definitely stronger than Elrond.

- Given these fundamental facts, we in fact want to change Elrond a bit, focusing more on his healing Magic and military ability of a leader, rather than natural Magic.
That's why a mount and different powers of Vylia seem to me more appropriate and very suitable for him.

Sorry for the wall of text  xD

#OnlyGaladrielCan :P


« Letzte Änderung: 17. Jul 2015, 13:00 von DieWalküre »

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #59 am: 17. Jul 2015, 12:47 »
And overall we have "Lord of the rings" section for such debate.
These walls of texts really won't help us to invent great concept for Elrond. 8-|

Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Jul 2015, 13:02 von TiberiusOgden »