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Autor Thema: Elrond - Lord of Imladris  (Gelesen 109335 mal)

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #60 am: 17. Jul 2015, 13:19 »
And overall we have "Lord of the rings" section for such debate.
These walls of texts really won't help us to invent great concept for Elrond. 8-|

Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:

I know, I'm sorry.
I promise that, from now on, I will religiously stick to concepts and game's mechanics  :)

That GIF of Elrond looks very familiar to me  :D


But, if you look closely, there is, after the wall of text, a tiny and small paragraph about Elrond's concept and game's mechanics, and the lore connects everything  xD

Zitat
- Given these fundamental facts, we in fact want to change Elrond a bit, focusing more on his healing Magic and military ability of a leader, rather than natural Magic.
That's why a mount and different powers of Vylia seem to me more appropriate and very suitable for him.

Zitat
Concerning Elrond's relationship with his mother in law ...  xD ... all I want to say about is:


That's the proper picture that sums everything between Golden Elrond and Seaweed Galadriel  :P

Eldalf

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #61 am: 17. Jul 2015, 13:31 »
See my point was actually, that there is this discussion as to removing the Tornado power from Elrond, hence what I was responding to.

Furthermore, your simply wrong to claim that Galadrial is more wise than Elrond, hermeneutically speaking Tolkien in using the term wise is seeking to infer learned, rather than experience. This is notable in how he describes the leaders of the west as "The Wise" and how the Valar themselves are also referred to as such.

Elrond then of whom it said expressly that "wise in all lore is master Elrond" should be considered from the pen of Tolkien as the most learned of the Elves left. 
This is significant in that it means that as the lord of the refuge of the elves, it is likely that Elrond is well learned in the sorceries of the Noldor.

In respect to Galadrial and Elrond, that has to do with my other point as to the nature of magic in Arda. There is a natural power that Elrond is hinted to have inherited (Foresight from Melian) or learned sorceries, which to be honest is the kind that Galadrial has acquired from her tutelage from Melian and from her time in Aman. Her natural qualities incline her to a greater level of mental insight, but not necessarily the telepathy of the movies.

For a concept however for Elrond, these are important elements to consider. It is much to easy to let Peter Jackson's images confuse us to the nature of the characters, and ultimately the written work of Tolkien must trump Jackson's imagery.

To that end, I propose, Elrond the Wise, Loremaster of Rivendell and Holder of Vilya.

First ability. The teachings of Elrond; aoe ability, adds a small amount of xp to heroes and Battalions in a radius.

Second Ability; Vilya's renewal.; Vilya the greatest of the elven rings, passively decreases the cooldowns of all heros and battalions within a set radius. This ability gains extra effects at level 5, 7 and 10. At five it increases the passive healing rate of heros and adds passive healing to battalions. At 7 it revives one dead man per battalion every 15 seconds. At level 10 it adds a passive fear resistance and adds an experience rate boost.   

Third Ability; Tornado.; as the game.

Fourth Ability; restoration; as the game.

Fifth Ability, Foresight; Elrond has total sight of the map. In the lore, the gift of foresight was something that Elrond was blessed with from his Great Grandmother.   

Additionally, when Elrond reaches level 10 and so long as Elrond is within a short radius, the Imaldris capital building gains a flood power. This can only be used within a limited radius and while Elrond remains close to the base.

Elrond wielding the waters of the Bruinen is something he can only do in a fixed area because he has embedded his power into it. Like Melian and her Girdle, it is located around Rivendell.

This concept of Elrond then is towards a view of him as being the spine of an Imaldris army, he either makes it endure, or gives it the power to cut through the enemy.

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #62 am: 17. Jul 2015, 13:47 »

Please, do not tempt me  :P

I think, if you want, that we can more easily discuss lore matters on the 'Lord of the Rings' section of the 'Prancing Pony'  :)
But, just a hint, there a lot of references in LOTR (books) of 'telepathic' abilities of Galadriel; when, for example, she guesses Frodo's questions about the Rings of Power, when she telepathically 'communicates' with Gandalf, Celeborn and Elrond during their return from the wedding of Aragorn and Arwen, or, most importantly, when (as also Haldir tells the Fellowship) she constantly telepathically fights against Sauron, each other trying to reveal the other's plans, and Galadriel always succeeds  :)

About the Elrond's 'Tornado', I recognise that it is an iconic power of his from BFME2, but it doesn't really fit, because the power involving the flood is already implemented, and I would like that the ability of conjuring whirlwinds and storms remains a characteristic of Galadriel.

Eldalf

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #63 am: 17. Jul 2015, 13:53 »
My issue is that the flood does not fit. The flood is something which needs to be moved from Elrond as it is only possible in a limit geography. Hence why I suggest tying it to the Fortress using a leadership aura to trigger and enable it.

Read the passage from Fellowship of the ring, Gandalf when he explains it to Frodo, talks about how Elrond has put his power into the river.

Also, this discussion of Elrond as a military leader, he is not a military leader in the Third Age. Glorfidel is the leader of the armies of Imaldris, Elrond instead is information, intelligence and healing.

Move Elrond's powers then to things which support the army which I am advocating, and that is something the Tornado does. Mechanically, it rarely kills anything, but it does break up the horde. This is a powerful strategic ability which denies favourable position to the enemy, and removing it will likely have a powerful macro effect on Imaldris gameplay.  To be honest, if you want to talk about things not fitting, then remove Gandalf's word of Power!

On another note, Imaldris not under constant siege, interesting how you more or less ignore the founding of Rivendell, and the whole mess with the Witch King. Yes in the late Third Age, Lothlorien is dealing with Dol Guldor, but Galadrial had not been in the Golden Wood until the Third Age. Rivendell in contrast was fighting for survival after the ruin of Eregion, and against the Witch King as well. In both instances Rivendell was under siege for an extended period.
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Jul 2015, 14:03 von Eldalf »

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #64 am: 17. Jul 2015, 14:32 »
Zitat
Also, this discussion of Elrond as a military leader, he is not a military leader in the Third Age. Glorfidel is the leader of the armies of Imaldris, Elrond instead is information, intelligence and healing.

Elrond has always been a military leader (being at the same time a healer/counselor) since his 'early' days as a herald of Gil-galad; from the Last Alliance to his alliance with Men against Angmar and, then, Mordor.

Zitat
On another note, Imaldris not under constant siege, interesting how you more or less ignore the founding of Rivendell, and the whole mess with the Witch King. Yes in the late Third Age, Lothlorien is dealing with Dol Guldor, but Galadrial had not been in the Golden Wood until the Third Age. Rivendell in contrast was fighting for survival after the ruin of Eregion, and against the Witch King as well. In both instances Rivendell was under siege for an extended period.

I referred to the Third Age (especially the War of the Ring), and thus the founding of Rivendell is excluded; and I wrote 'constantly', that means for quite the entire Third Age, while the war between Rivendell and Angmar was a 'part'/'section' of the more extensive war between Men and Angmar (it was a successful intervention of Gondor that saved the day).
Lothlórien had instead to directly deal with all the threats and evil presences that began to establish in Mirkwood long before the War of the Ring; and, in the War of the Ring (when Rivendell was completely safe), Galadriel personally and directly led her realm to Victory.

Zitat
Move Elrond's powers then to things which support the army which I am advocating, and that is something the Tornado does. Mechanically, it rarely kills anything, but it does break up the horde. This is a powerful strategic ability which denies favourable position to the enemy, and removing it will likely have a powerful macro effect on Imaldris gameplay.  To be honest, if you want to talk about things not fitting, then remove Gandalf's word of Power!

Elrond is a Hero/Units Supporter, not a Mass Slayer like Gandalf; the difference is important.

helloa2134

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #65 am: 17. Jul 2015, 14:51 »
There have been lots of really great ideas thrown around in this thread but sometimes I feel as though people occasionally place lore-faithfulness over having good gameplay.  Some systems are unnecessarily complex. If Elrond is a unit/hero supporter all, or at least 4 of his abilities should follow that.  I like Eldalf's suggestion though I would replace tornado with Flood (the idea to have Elrond use flood from the fortress is reminiscent of Sarumans system and just another burdensome mechanic).  And I would remove Foresight (Cirdan already has it) and replace it with a level 5 armor buff accompanied by a change in appearance to his brown-silver armor.  Vilyas  Renewal should have its exact effects tweaked but the base idea is very good and very fitting for Elrond.

Eldalf

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #66 am: 17. Jul 2015, 15:01 »
Elrond really needs to have foresight, or something related to it though.

Elrond's gift of foresight is something which is quite central to his character. I would sooner see Cirdan lose foresight than Elrond.

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #67 am: 17. Jul 2015, 15:08 »
There have been lots of really great ideas thrown around in this thread but sometimes I feel as though people occasionally place lore-faithfulness over having good gameplay.  Some systems are unnecessarily complex. If Elrond is a unit/hero supporter all, or at least 4 of his abilities should follow that.  I like Eldalf's suggestion though I would replace tornado with Flood (the idea to have Elrond use flood from the fortress is reminiscent of Sarumans system and just another burdensome mechanic).  And I would remove Foresight (Cirdan already has it) and replace it with a level 5 armor buff accompanied by a change in appearance to his brown-silver armor.  Vilyas  Renewal should have its exact effects tweaked but the base idea is very good and very fitting for Elrond.

This is exactly, with maybe some differences, what I'm trying to express.
Given Elrond's role, it would be more appropriate a concept more focused on his military abilities as a leader, and I totally agree about the flood (that is already implemented, by the way) and the different representation of Vilya's powers, rather than a lore and role problematic whirlwind.

Eldalf

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #68 am: 17. Jul 2015, 15:17 »
The issue though is the flood and the whirlwind preform different distinct roles. Flood is a knockback + damage effect, Whirlwind is a persistent area denial + damage+knockback. I feel that switching the whirlwind for the flood would negatively effect the meta use of the abilities. Game balance has to count for something here. Furthermore, why does Elrond need to be the army leader? Lore wise he is not, not since the second age has Elrond marched to war. Not even when his wife was taken by orcs.

Flood is a useless ability in my view, it has too short a range, is negligible on the damage front, and does not cause enough disruption. My suggestion with moving it to the fortress with an aura to enable it, would enable for the damage and radius to be boosted as it becomes a defensive power rather than one that can be used aggressively.

To elaborate a bit more, if Elrond is a supporter hero, why should he be close enough to the general melee to be able to effectively use flood? Should he not be somewhere a bit more withdrawn to better direct the flow and apply his buffs?

Mechanically, I feel that heroes roles should reflect their lore. In this sense, Elrond as the hero and unit supporter thematically does reflect that. So to does the whirlwind power. Flood in it's current incarnation does nothing well, and is a wasted power slot.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #69 am: 17. Jul 2015, 16:34 »
elrond made the flood but gandal made the horse head

Eldalf

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #70 am: 17. Jul 2015, 17:11 »
Elrond made a flood, out of a river in which he had invested his powers. It was something he could only have done with the Bruinien. Consider the ring, it was Sauron's because he had placed his essence within it. Elrond had done something similar to Rivendell. Whether the ring played a role in this is debatable, but the flood was something that was limited to the river surrounding Rivendell. It is why I feel it does not fit for Elrond to have it as a power. Far better for the whirlwind power that is nominally tied to vilya.

Not to mention that mechanically the flood power feels odd. I know in 3.8.1 I did not want Elrond to be leading my armies from the front, I wanted him as a backline hero, adding experience and restoring my heroes. Even should he be made into an army leader hero, it makes no sense to have him on the front line. His hero supporter role is such that like Galadrial he should be towards the back, healing and buffing the forces you have. The Whirlwind power supports this role, it holds a flank of the battle, either denying the ground to the enemy or by disrupting their formation. I would even support a unit summon over the flood on a pure mechanical level as that would preform the same macro function.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #71 am: 17. Jul 2015, 18:05 »
elrond is a good fighter and a good leader and he is the best healer in ME so i think he his skills needs to be a mix of those leadership healing and the flood i think its a signature skill of his

Eldalf

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #72 am: 17. Jul 2015, 19:08 »
My problem with the flood vs whirlwind is the gameplay of the two. The flood does not fufill the same gameplay role. The flood in the books is a power cast from well outside line of sight and would be an army killer ability, is this what you are advocating here? Three measly water horses from direct line of sight in no way matches with the lore, and in no way are equivalent to the gameplay tactics of the tornado. Lord Elrond in the Edain mod is a hero support and army supporter. Healing, Foresight, experience gift all contribute to that. A leadership that aura passively reduces cooldowns and boosts healing would fit well with the powers of Vilya. That leaves one last power. This power should be a strategic power, one that can change the course of the battle with the correct application. Maybe something like the Arnor spellbook flood would fit here, with toned down damage and increased cast range, but a short range flood like he had in 3.8.1 is utterly useless to say the least. It does not contribute to the hero's abilities in support, nor does it make sense with the heroes role in the battlefield. He is supposed to be a semi-backline hero not changing into battle. Unless you decouple cast range from the spell, flood just becomes a spell you only use as a last resort, and that seems kinda odd.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #73 am: 17. Jul 2015, 20:04 »
well i think it should be a long ranged flood with horses and a lot of dmg

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #74 am: 17. Jul 2015, 20:11 »
Don't worry, flood will be implemented as a Elrond skill (smaller effect) and as a ultimate spell in the spellbook (large effect).