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Autor Thema: Elrond - Lord of Imladris  (Gelesen 109045 mal)

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #90 am: 18. Jul 2015, 14:29 »
i like that :)

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #91 am: 18. Jul 2015, 21:37 »

You wrote really great lines about the nature of Magic in Tolkien and the particularity of Lothlórien as a 'magically' protected realm (and these aspects will be kind of represented in the Edain Mod), and I totally agree with you.
But there is also something more to add, and I will try not to exceed in boring lore facts stating, also because I feel I have written on MU a ton of posts about this topic.

- No one has ever fetishised or is fetishising Galadriel, since her incredible Might and Importance in Middle Earth's affairs are often hinted at and explained by Tolkien; and, trust me, LOTR and the Silmarillion already give you in their entirety really solid facts and absolute statements about her, as a character and a hero.

- It's true, in the books it is never clearly explained how Galadriel has destroyed Dol Guldur, or what kind of devices she used in her action.
BUT it is easily comprehensible, and the BFME2/Edain Mod solution (whirlwind and storm) is honestly the most reasonable among all the other probabilities; not to mention that the 'relationship' between Galadriel and Storms has always been an iconic element from the very BFME2.
Also, it is fundamental reporting that Galadriel not only did she throw down the Walls of Dol Guldur (and she could have probably used, as you mentioned, a spell that nullified the magical boundaries of the fortress' structures, resembling what Lúthien did in the First Age), but it is also stated that she violently cleansed the fortress and all the surrounding woods by Sauron's memory and the filth of all the evil presences that had been there for centuries, and a Storm is the most immediate and logical way that I can picture in mind.
The MOST REASONABLE explanation that I can give you, of Galadriel's ability involving storms, is the very deep conception of MAGIC of Tolkien.
The elements that you mentioned are crucial, being also the quite exact and 'reflected' thing that happens in Valinor, and the source of the Bliss of this realm (the presence of the Valar).
But, there is something more; another fundamental representation and display of Magic is the ability, of powerful beings, of modifying and manipulating the Weather of the World on a larger scale, according to their will.
And Galadriel and Sauron (the two most powerful beings in Middle Earth in the Third Age) do it all the time, the latter creating an eternal dark Sky of ashes upon Mordor, and the former maintaining a neverending calm and sunny Sky upon Lothlórien; Galadriel, also, long before the War of the Ring, created an enchanted Mist to protect Eorl, the ancestor of the Rohirrim, and his army from the dark influence of Dol Guldur.
Thus, given these essential facts, the ability of Galadriel of conjuring whirlwinds/storms, as also Adrigabbro wrote, can totally be regarded as lore acceptable and iconic  :)

- I think that the problem with Elrond and whirlwinds consists, apart from the lore problematics, in his role as a Hero/Units Supporter.
Galadriel's primary attack against structures (whirlwind) and Gandalf's 'Word of Power' are totally justified by their roles as, respectively, Building Destroyer and Mass Slayer; Galadriel is also a Hero Supporter, and that's why her ultimate level 10 power (Nenya) will focus on Protection.
Given Elrond's role as a supporter hero, he thus should have the healing/restoration powers of Vilya (extended also to the Allies) as his level 10 power, and his flood power would be enough for his role and nature.
A whirlwind as an ability of his, also placed as a level 10 power, doesn't just fit.


TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #92 am: 18. Jul 2015, 23:24 »
I've talked with Tienety about it ... quite a lot. xD
And it seems that we have, or we will have some interesting proposal for Elrond, which we will suggest together.
During next days I'll present it.

Eldalf

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #93 am: 19. Jul 2015, 03:37 »
The reason I would put the flood as a level 10 power is to justify increasing it's power. Elrond's use of the Bruinen is one of the most powerful direct applications of
"magic" in the entire series. Comparable easily to how Galadrial destroys an army of orcs during the march of Erol with a Golden Mist. Thus should it not be something memorable in the game? Let it be the pinnacle of his power, a power that would collapse an army flank entirely, how is that not support?

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #94 am: 19. Jul 2015, 14:13 »
The reason I would put the flood as a level 10 power is to justify increasing it's power. Elrond's use of the Bruinen is one of the most powerful direct applications of
"magic" in the entire series. Comparable easily to how Galadrial destroys an army of orcs during the march of Erol with a Golden Mist. Thus should it not be something memorable in the game? Let it be the pinnacle of his power, a power that would collapse an army flank entirely, how is that not support?

Ok, even though I would prefer more Vilya's powers of healing/restoration to be his ultimate power, I can accept the concept of the flood (as I also kept on writing in my comments) as his destructive power; I just don't like the idea of him capable of conjuring whirlwinds, and tying this power to Vilya, as it happened in the Edain Mod 3.8.1.

My mentioning of the significant aid of Galadriel to Eorl and his army was mainly meant to show that it is possible, and very lore accurate, inferring that she has the capability of modifying and manipulating the Weather of the World, and its meteorological phenomena.
But Galadriel's aid to Eorl is clearly not the most important manifestation of her usage of Magic in the Third Age.
Elrond created a flood to defeat the 9 Ringwraiths; Galadriel repulsed three heavy and consecutive assaults from Dol Guldur, and then personally destroyed the fortress and cleansed entirely southern Mirkwood from centuries of evil, making grow a Mallorn Tree on its purified soil.
The display of Galadriel's Magic and powers is honestly and logically greater than Elrond's one  :)


« Letzte Änderung: 19. Jul 2015, 14:49 von DieWalküre »

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #95 am: 19. Jul 2015, 14:24 »
Tolkien describes Galadriel as
Zitat
the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth

But this is my last comment concerning her. This thread is about her son-in-law.

Walküre

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Re: Elven rings of power and man with golden armour
« Antwort #96 am: 19. Jul 2015, 14:45 »
Tolkien describes Galadriel as
Zitat
the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth



Yes, a very lapidary and absolute statement.
If it had been so simple, I would have not written the walls of text that I wrote  xD

Zitat
But this is my last comment concerning her. This thread is about her son-in-law.

Me too, I promise  :)
Otherwise:



TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #97 am: 19. Jul 2015, 15:22 »
By the way, the first page was updated. :)
Thanks to Tienety for some advice how to deal with Elrond. :P

Eldalf

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #98 am: 19. Jul 2015, 15:51 »
Really, a mount toggle? In place of foresight? That is to say the least an absolute waste.  Elrond's Foresight is one of his most dominant attributes. It is a power he possesses by virtue of his descent, much the same way as the keener insight into minds is a power that Galadrial possesses. Furthermore, the experience boosting leadership is also lackluster. A healing leadership might work, but there are four dominant characteristics of Elrond within Tolkien, Loremaster, Healer, Bearer of the Vilya and the gift of foresight. At least let the passive aura reflect the healing prowess, and dual purpose the experience gift ability to affect heroes and battalions. But seriously, Foresight is one of the key features of Elrond in the lore, to take that from him for the sake of a mere horse is absurd.

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #99 am: 19. Jul 2015, 16:06 »
Foresight is one of the key features of Elrond in the lore
Definitely not.
Yes, maybe, but it does not fit to his role, because foresight ability (former Elrond's spell from vanilla game) will have Galdor as a scout hero, which is quite fitting for scout, and don't have to forget Cirdan's last skill. This is the same case like whirlwind - Alatar has whirlwind and lightbringers will have whilwind as well, it means that for Elrond it won't be unique exactly like foresight skill.
Elrond will be (and always was in Edain) Lord of Imladris on the battlefield and not guy with bathrobe somewhere background.

to take that from him for the sake of a mere horse is absurd
Definitely not, except of arguments for this above ... it's also way as nerfed him at least, because either way he is still extremely useful (I rather don't want to say OP) and maybe more useful than Gandy, Gladys, Witch king, etc ... I think. 8-|

By the way Eldalf - especially for you we upgraded skill on level one, according to your arguments in discussion, we also think that his flood is iconic and deserves something better. ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 19. Jul 2015, 16:12 von TiberiusOgden »

Eldalf

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #100 am: 19. Jul 2015, 18:06 »
But Elrond's foresight is more integral to him than Galadrial's mirror. It would bug me to the point I would need to mod it just to not be irritated by it and as a result I would no longer be able to play the mod online. Elrond's gift of foresight is entirely crucial to how he became the lord of Rivendell. It is hinted in some of the stuff that it was only by virtue of this gift that he was able to guide Gil-Galad into seeing Annatar as Sauron. Take the power from Cirdan give it to Elrond, far more fitting...

One thing about Elrond's flood, take the silly horses out of it. Those were something added by Gandalf and they kinda look absurd.

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #101 am: 19. Jul 2015, 18:22 »
It would bug me to the point I would need to mod it just to not be irritated by it and as a result I would no longer be able to play the mod online.
Sorry, but as a Edain moderator I have to deny such stupid argument, because in that case it will be only your problem. If I should think this way in general, so I wouldn't do anything.
I really do not know what should write to you right now, because I am completely shocked.
« Letzte Änderung: 19. Jul 2015, 18:28 von TiberiusOgden »

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #102 am: 19. Jul 2015, 18:27 »
I support your idea completely!
Elrond should have a Mount since he is a Noble and Famous Elven Lord and beign abel to mount symbolizes that!About the Power of his Ring of Power I like the concepts of all 3 to differ and him geting the healing it will represnt his way of living and leading trying to pretect his kin from any harm in Imladris! :) About his Armor looks I agree that he should have first his AuJ Armor and alter LV 10 BoFA Armor from DG as for his Last Alliance Armor its is most fiting for him in the Spell Last Alliance!Since he whore it so many thousands years ago and is kinda outdated if I may say it that way!While his Hobbit Movie Armors represnt what he used during the Third Age in which the timeline is set and I think it feels right this way and is more fiting for him to use those Armos! :) But instead his Skill to Give Exp to a hero I think he should have his Foresight Ability which he has in the MOvies too! :)
So basicly I am 101% (I added teh 1 on purposse not by mistake this tiem Tiberius :D ) support you on your ideas about Elrond and the Elven Rings! :)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Eldalf

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #103 am: 19. Jul 2015, 18:47 »
Well my argument is that the lore itself puts tremendous focus onto that aspect of Elrond, his foresight is one of the things that enabled him to so well serve Gil-Galad as a counselor, It also had other powerful applications in the second age, to do with the alliance with Numenor.

"Thus Narsil came in due time to the hand of Valandil, Isildur’s heir, in Imladris; but the blade was broken and its light was extinguished, and it was not forged anew. And Master Elrond foretold that this would not be done until the Ruling Ring should be found again and Sauron should return; but the hope of Elves and Men was that these things might never come to pass."

It is even hinted that his support for Frodo taking the ring to Mordor was based on an instance of foresight as well.

In this sense, some of the most important actions of Elrond in the Lord of the Rings books are actions he does from his ability to perceive what shall be. He makes ready to reforge Narsil, he sides with Frodo as ring-bearer, he calls together the kindred of the Dunedain to form the Grey Company and sends them hence. These are all actions that indicate an unnatural ability of prelopsis.

In Tolkien's letters he talks of how Elrond “saw many things and read many hearts” and so it would seem that other than as a healer the primary role of Elrond is as a soothsayer.

That is why I have such an emotive reaction over this, removing the ability is a substantial departure from the lore. It would be one thing to say let's remove all heroes abilities that reveal the map, but your not, you are instead talking about removing it from an individual who has one of the greatest claims to it.

In fact, when Gandalf talks about the limits of foresight, it is not himself, or Saruman, or even Galadrial he refers to, it is to Elrond. Within the universe itself amongst the wise, it is to Elrond that we have a reference to the greatest level of foresight and predilection towards prophecy.

Walküre

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #104 am: 19. Jul 2015, 18:57 »

Great work, Tiberius and Tienety, and a very smart and useful type of integration between your former two concepts.

Just one thing, I am concerned about the flood.
I really like its concept, and I want it to be implemented, but I'm not sure if the Edain Team would accept it; shouldn't a level 1 power remain a 'moderately weak' and basic power for all the duration of the game?
If it gets stronger and enhanced, wouldn't there be a risk of overpowering?
I would then consider also a gradual slowing of the restoring time of the power, in the course of the levelling up of Elrond.

Anyway, I like the concept in its entirety, and, most importantly, the correct and lore accurate display of the powers of the Three Rings (Vilya in this case).
My motto is: anything but whirlwinds  xD