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Autor Thema: Elrond - Lord of Imladris  (Gelesen 108860 mal)

Walküre

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #120 am: 21. Jul 2015, 12:53 »
Cirdan is the most foresighted of all the Elves left in Middle-Earth, so I think it is more fitting that he has the power instead of Elrond.

True, he was the first one to recognise the true nature of the Wizards, just arrived in Middle Earth from beyond the Sea  :)
And the first one to understand the real value and status of Gandalf as the wisest and the destined-to-be chief of the Istari.
It is also stated and inferred, as I read somewhere, that the Palantír, the one kept by Círdan, is the only one capable of communicating with the Elves of Eressëa, who own as well a Palantír.

So, I think that this significant aspect of Imladris/Lindon/Grey Havens is already well implemented, and thus Elrond can focus mainly on his leader/commander/healer nature.


Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #121 am: 21. Jul 2015, 13:24 »
agree

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #122 am: 21. Jul 2015, 21:28 »
I think that we shouldn't speculate about foresight when we have clear statement from J.R.R. Tolkien:


So Cirdan should have the most powerful foresight ability. And that Gladys has better and clearer foresight ability than Elrond is quite obvious around all forums which I know - because she has her mirror, which supports her abilities, simply said.

And both implementations are (and will be) badass - Cirdan can reveal the whole map for some time and Gladys can reveal only parts of map, but permanently.
In both cases is the Team extremely lore accurate and personally I really like it. :) 

Yes Elrond has very powerful foresight ability, but definitely not as a Cirdan. And all heroes really can't have such ability - Celeborn deserves it too (and maybe Istari as well).

As I said - Gildor as a scout hero will have the same spell on level one like Gladys will have on level five (but in Gildor's case only for some time) and it fits for Imladris scout hero. Cirdan will be part of the faction as well.

So we should go away from foresight for Elrond because foresight is more or less support ability from the distance, but Elrond will be primarily Hero supporter and strong army leader on the battlefield.
« Letzte Änderung: 21. Jul 2015, 21:33 von TiberiusOgden »

Walküre

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #123 am: 21. Jul 2015, 23:18 »

So we should go away from foresight for Elrond because foresight is more or less support ability from the distance, but Elrond will be primarily Hero supporter and strong army leader on the battlefield.


Yes, this is the crucial point  :)
Elrond's healing, magical and military abilities will be thus shown more appropriately and coherently, I think, without whirlwinds  :P

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #124 am: 22. Jul 2015, 00:10 »
agree no whirlwinds for elrond  xD xD xD xD

Eldalf

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #125 am: 22. Jul 2015, 18:20 »
But we also have clear statements from Tolkien about the depth of the foresight of Elrond. In the Fellowship of the ring, with respect to the depth of events, Gandalf describes the events to beyond even lord Elrond's ability to foresee. This indicates that it is powerful natural trait that is distinctive amongst even the wise. Considering Gandalf's tendency to respond to questions by talking about it being beyond the Wise in plural, it suggests then that by using Elrond as the limiting factor that his foresight is something significant even amongst the wise. If you need me to I can go through a copy of the Fellowship of the Ring to find you the exact quote, however, it is a limiting statement that relies on Elrond as an exemplar of the characteristic, which suggests that Elrond then is regarded among the wise as having a kinda special level of foresight. This is why it needs to be part of the character.

helloa2134

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #126 am: 22. Jul 2015, 21:54 »
Except Cìrdan is even MORE foresighted than Elrond so naturally the power belongs most appropriately with him rather than Elrond.   Also, it would be unwise and redundant to give the same power to both Elrond and Cìrdan

Walküre

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #127 am: 22. Jul 2015, 22:02 »
Except Cìrdan is even MORE foresighted than Elrond so naturally the power belongs most appropriately with him rather than Elrond.   Also, it would be unwise and redundant to give the same power to both Elrond and Cìrdan

Good point, I agree.
And Rivendell can also use the Palantír of Elostirion power of the Lindon watchtower, so it would be quite redundant giving the same ability to Elrond.

Elostirion is the tallest and westernmost tower of the Three White Towers  :)

 

CragLord

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #128 am: 22. Jul 2015, 22:08 »

When we are about that, people what are you think about this suggestion:
http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31033.msg399396.html#msg399396

« Letzte Änderung: 30. Sep 2015, 20:16 von CragLord »

Walküre

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #129 am: 22. Jul 2015, 22:14 »
Good point, I agree.
And Rivendell can also use the Palantír of Elostirion power of the Lindon watchtower, so it would be quite redundant giving the same ability to Elrond.

Elostirion is the tallest and westernmost tower of the Three White Towers  :)

When we are about that, people what are you think about this suggestion:
http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31033.msg399396.html#msg399396

Really great suggestion  :)
If you mention Valinor or Aman you always make me happy  :P

The Edain Team could also create an image of a bright Palantír surrounded with an intense radiant Light, since this Seeing Stone is the only one in Middle Earth that can communicate with the one of Eressëa.

Eldalf

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #130 am: 23. Jul 2015, 06:46 »
But we have it within the books themselves! I thought the Lord of the Rings should at least acknowledge the books with the same name? In those books it is said among the wise Elrond possesses a particularly special level of insight. But it seems that this forum is just a justification to remove parts of the character you find do not fit for gameplay reasons. If that is your belief make the argument. Otherwise stop trying to use the lore to tangle itself, it is ultimately inconclusive as the lore of the books also says that Cirdan has more or less given up on Middle Earth and simply waits at the havens for the Elves to depart.

helloa2134

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #131 am: 23. Jul 2015, 07:35 »
Tolkien EXPLICITLY said that Cìrdan is the most foresighted of all the elves in Middle Earth, even listing Galadriel and Elrond by name.  Edain draws upon lore from the entirety of Tolkien's legendarium, not just LOTR and the Hobbit.  Yes, most of us think, from a gameplay perspective, that Elronds role within the faction does not fit well with foresight, but that is half of the argument.  We are not tangling the lore, and an explicit statement is extremely conclusive. 

The lore supports The argument that Cìrdan should have foresight.  Foresight also suits Cìrdan's role within the faction from a gameplay perspective as well, though that argument has already been made and I won't repeat it here.

So please, don't be rude just because we disagree with you.

CragLord

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #132 am: 23. Jul 2015, 10:03 »
Because this isn't part of this thread, this is last my comment about it.
Do you think we need new topic about this "palantir look" or not? Maybe to sum all ideas about it?  ;)  New topic under "Gondor suggestions"?
« Letzte Änderung: 30. Sep 2015, 20:15 von CragLord »

Eldalf

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #133 am: 23. Jul 2015, 11:06 »
But Tolkien's lore is a contradictory and evolving substance. For instance, there remains some debate as to whether Elrond was an Elf Lord, based on the fact that typically Tolkien does not directly refer to him as such. In the hobbit for instance he is called as fair in face as an Elf Lord, as wise as a wizard, and as resolute as a king of Dwarves. Likewise, when the council of Elrond discusses Elf-Lords it notes Glorfidel and excludes Elrond. There is a confusion in Tolkien's writings prior to 1948 as to whether Elrond of Rivendell and Elrond son of Earendil are one and the same. Likewise, there is a similar problem with respect to Glorfidel's return, whether he returned in the third age with the Istari, whether he came in the Second to aid in the resistance to Sauron or even whether he was a different elf entirely. The point that I am trying to make here, is that the legendarium is itself confused and contradictory, especially in the material published by Christopher Tolkien. If we are going to use the lore, it should surely stand that the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings trilogy must hold a higher weighting factor in a practical sense, to enable the management of these contradictory and confusing stories. I was not being rude as you say, merely exasperated, I would like a consistent point of argument, not this jumping around between gameplay and lore. I am an academic by profession, it is impossible to argue without agreeing a proper frame of reference, and we have lacked this almost the entire way through. So thus to reiterate. From the Lord of the Rings we have a direct statement inferring a special level of foresight. In the Hobbit we have a direct statement with respect to the validity of the advice of Elrond with respect to future action. These taken together infer a peculiar ability to divine what will occur. The movies themselves go much further as to visually represent Elrond as possessing full blown waking prophetic vision. These arguments taken together strongly suggest that the power of foresight is an ability or quality that is innate to the identity of the character. Now, gameplay-wise their is an argument that it is unnecessary as their are others means to access the ability. This is something that is an entirely different discussion. I would suggest removing one of those other sources in favour of giving it to a character who in the Hobbit preforms a role in which one of the primary purposes of his character is to provide a level of insight and guidance to future action.
« Letzte Änderung: 23. Jul 2015, 11:16 von Eldalf »

Walküre

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Re: Elrond - lord of Imladris
« Antwort #134 am: 23. Jul 2015, 15:24 »

Really great suggestion  :)
If you mention Valinor or Aman you always make me happy  :P

The Edain Team could also create an image of a bright Palantír surrounded with an intense radiant Light, since this Seeing Stone is the only one in Middle Earth that can communicate with the one of Eressëa.
Because this isn't part of this thread, this is last my comment about it.
Do you think we need new topic about this "palantir look" or not? Maybe to sum all ideas about it?  ;)  New topic under "Gondor suggestions"?

Ok, I support this idea :)


Now, gameplay-wise their is an argument that it is unnecessary as their are others means to access the ability. This is something that is an entirely different discussion. I would suggest removing one of those other sources in favour of giving it to a character who in the Hobbit preforms a role in which one of the primary purposes of his character is to provide a level of insight and guidance to future action.

There would be so much to write about Tolkien and contradictions, obviously in a positive way; but this is not the right place.
Now we are focusing on Elrond as a character, but, most importantly, as a hero of the Edain Mod, and this aspect makes the gameplay issues fundamental as well.

It is well known that Elrond has the ability of Foresight, and it is totally acceptable.
But, since Rivendell will implement the aspect of Foresight already in three different manners (Círdan's Omniscience, Palantír of Elostirion in the Lindon watchtower and Gildor's Vision), and since the role of Elrond (Hero and Unit Supporter) as the leader of the faction is greater than the other heroes', I would say that it would be a bit unnecessary and redundant adding another foresight power to Elrond; even though we know for sure that he has that precise capability.