[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Galadriel

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Gandalf7000:
This is a very well defined and written concept that I fully support. It will give Galadriel some new cool abilities and she will not be OP. So I'm for this concept.

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am  4. Jan 2017, 23:30 ---First of all: We are talking about the concept on page 9, right? ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---

Greetings to you, dear Melkor. It's always a pleasure to know your usual truculent judgement, yet ever honest and insightful. And the fact that you don't find my concept completely horrid comforts me, in a sense. It really gives me hope for the future  xD

Most of the in-game considerations you brought to attention are interesting indeed, yet I think some scenarios you pictured could always be subjected to a certain level of personal opinion and choices regarding strategy. In coming up with a final proposal, I had to balance many aspects and think about a lot of eventualities, and then I chose to follow the solution which I deemed appropriate. To address our own differing views, I don't think that Galadriel could be considered the mass-slayer of the faction at all, since her abilities have a totally different characterisation and I don't find her attack so much deadly (yes, it's effective, but not so monstrous), if one considers how the enemy may counter that by targeting her directly or via other different means (and you yourself acknowledged her current vulnerability). On top of all, I regard those abilities well justified for a few significant reasons: contrary to Grishnákh or Ori, we're talking about a 3000-resource hero who also happens to be the supreme leader of the faction (under this perspective, very pervasive and wide-range features are comprehensible). As I think that an ability is unique also due to its effectiveness, I find the last two abilities legitimate, if you also take into account the level they require to be available at. In light of that, I deem Banishment into the Void not less proper than Nenya's Protection.

As you too mentioned, the way I dealt with possible limitations are the very limitations I presented, which consist of the inability to attack (not so much monstrous anymore), her slowed-down movements and the very temporary connotation of the concept. Don't forget, also, that using Banishment into the Void will automatically lead her to return to her normal (vulnerable) form, thus ceasing the negative effect of Eerie Aura, that could have given your troops the chance to finish heroes and monsters very easily. I think these counter-measures are quite enough to prevent her from being an OP Elven goddess. Actually, someone told me that I exaggerated too much by binding her in a so strict way; you then may see how very opposite views are present in the discussion.

Anyway, left aside our own divergences on values or effects, I really appreciate the fact that you (as I suppose) liked the conceptual premises and roots of this proposal, which were the toughest aspect I had to work on (as they are the very foundations of the concept). I don't deny that, at the beginning of this journey, I had expected to get negative feedback based on statements as 'the Hobbit films are rubbish', but all the positive responses I got really surprised me. As you do, I really think that Galadriel currently needs more and, in particular, other clever additions to add to her already lore-accurate design. So, we do see some things in the same way  ;)

Bear nonetheless this in mind: as you certainly know better than me, in the ever-changing realm of balance, values and effects can always be overhauled or changed. That said, were the proposal to be toned down a bit in any way, I wouldn't mind that at all. I shall stick to my own opinions, while I leave the final decision in the hands of whom develops the Edain Mod in the first place. Henceforth, even though I won't modify the concept, there is the possibility that your own considerations will be indeed taken into account. Also, I guess you will be very much happy to know that I'm planning to translate all of this in German. This 'broken' proposal will thus soon haunt the German forum too  :D

And, always remember, the ONE on the right is older  8-)

Melkor Bauglir:
Sorry, it took me so long to reply to you, Walküre! ;)
First I'd like to get over some brief points of you:

--- Zitat ---To address our own differing views, I don't think that Galadriel could be considered the mass-slayer of the faction at all, since her abilities have a totally different characterisation and I don't find her attack so much deadly
--- Ende Zitat ---
Well, if she isn't, who is? There is not at single hero in the faction of Lorien who has such devastating attacks when we are just talking about killing masses of troops. Apart from that: One- or twoshotting enemy bataillons in quite some variety of net-worth, is from my point of view the literal definition of a mass-slayer. ;) Apart from that you are right that her abilities don't support this role, but that is utterly unimportant when judging by her attack -look at older versions of the Mordor-WK. He got his word of power only at level 10, but was feared as one of the most disgusting mass-slayers in the game. And his power came exclusively from his AoE-attacks -which Galadriel has as well. Thus she is a mass-slayer. Or to put it differently: If Galadriel isn't, why is Gandalf? His attacks don't do much damage. xD

Also, I'm sorry, but since my critizism for this concept was entirely balance-related, the point that Galadriel is the supreme-leader of Lorien is completely immaterial. That gives her the right to be strong, but she already is, and furthermore that's hardly a balance-argument. (It's a design-argument: She should be strong.)


--- Zitat ---As I think that an ability is unique also due to its effectiveness, I find the last two abilities legitimate, if you also take into account the level they require to be available at. In light of that, I deem Banishment into the Void not less proper than Nenya's Protection.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I must say, that I myself am not a big fan of this "do or die"-concept certain heroes have. Locking critical (for his role!) abilities behind abnormally high levels is in my opinion a very bad gameplay idea. Whatever, that's not the thing you were talking about, so I'm going to reply to the real statement.
My problem with "Banishment into the Void" isn't really that it's strong, but that I'd consider it too strong, possibly broken -again, as far as I can tell, Galadriel ONLY weakness are strong single units primarily heroes and -to a massively lesser extent- monsters (because of Loriens archer supremacy). Ordinary troops get completely massacred by the White Lady or at least highly damaged. (Even if she can't oneshot enemies anymore: She still hits 2/3 of an unclumped bataillon at the same time!) Both of the last two abilites absolutely hard-counter her only weakness and that's in my opinion not OK. (And it's disgusting to play against.)
You are right, that it takes some time to get there, but... You know what, I'll try to explain this differently: Imagine some faction having access to in incredibly expensive (25k, why not? ;)) ability that essentially wins them the game. Of course, they have zero chance of ever getting there because the price is ludicrous. Still, it's kind of OP because you can't do anything against it once it's there. That's probably the best example for some feature to be "broken", you can make -something both UP and OP at the same time! That powerfull spells like "You have no power!" (which BTW is already problematic and easy to get) and "Banishment into the Void" and a bit like this: They'd practically make Galadriel unstoppable or at least much to strong, their ONLY downside is how unlikely they are to get. Does everyone get the similarities with the "broken"-example above?


--- Zitat ---Don't forget, also, that using Banishment into the Void will automatically lead her to return to her normal (vulnerable) form, thus ceasing the negative effect of Eerie Aura, that could have given your troops the chance to finish heroes and monsters very easily.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Yes, which was some of the points, I ended up being unsure about, whether this is a bad thing for Galadriel: Once she has destroyed the threat of enemy heroes, there would be no need to be in her "hero-counter-form". Instead it would be kind of a buff, actually, if she could then continue to attack the troops who now have no real chance of hitting back. And "Eerie Aura" is by far the weakest spell of the three, don't having access to it won't change much.

I thus remain full of doubts. Perhaps it might be a good idea to scale the concept a bit back (speaking exclusively about the balance-side of things!)?


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Walküre:
Melkor, the fact that we're discussing this proposal thoroughly and trying to improve it is something that really pleases me very much. Yet it seems that we're quite firm on our own opinions.

As I told you, some of the scenarios you pictured are subjected to personal choices of strategy and gameplay; for example, a smart player might always take advantage of the negative implications of those abilities and use them to counter Galadriel. Set aside her powerful attack that you deem really inappropriate, the features I proposed for her are meant to grant her an interfering (interfering, and not hero-killer-like) essence against monsters and other heroes (against whom her monstrous attack can do very little); that is, making them flee or neutralising for a very BRIEF amount of time their powers. While in the drowned/obscure form, she won't be able to harm anyone directly. That is very important. And even if her last banishing spell is cast, she loses strength and thus returns to normality: monsters and heroes can then take a sigh of relief. The point of the concept is in fact interfering with heroes or monsters, but not at the point of taking them down (that's the role of Celeborn).

Furthermore, I don't really find the arguments centred on Galadriel's role so much immaterial. Wouldn't one expect to make usage of a decent ability, once higher levels are reached? Is it so much wrong to expect a quite unique and effective feature for a hero like her? What about Gandalf's Word of Power or Saruman conjuring lightning storms? Beside values, those are fundamental aspects too.

Yes, I'm not intended to change the main structure of the proposal now, especially at this point of the developing process (the final stage). Many people have already agreed with the current shape of the concept and altering it now would thus not be so much fair; as I said, someone even wanted to have more effective abilities and thought that I had bound Galadriel too much. Someone to whom I had to explain that one of my pressing concerns was not to make her unnecessarily overpowered or an inferior replica of the Dark Queen (and this is not the purpose of the proposal at all!). Nevertheless, since Christmas is not completely over yet, I feel very open-minded in regards of our discussion. What do you mean with 'balance-related side of things'? Are you referring to mere numbers or even to conceptual aspects? What would you say, if I told you that the last two abilities (with which you have issues) could have an even more temporary connotation? That is, making the neutralising/disabling effects of those powers very temporary (the time Galadriel needs to escape or to save her troops from the enemies).

I know that we probably see things under completely different perspectives, and the last thing I would like to do is exactly presenting you a take-it-or-leave-it proposal with an apocalyptic tone, but, at this point, could you be able to look at the heart of the very concept and leave numbers aside? Values that I don't think will remain immutable. Very rarely is a proposal implemented as it had been initially proposed  :)

Walküre:
I finally translated the concept in German, so that even the German side of the Community can easily consult that proposal without any problem involving language differences.

Also, I decided to rename the title of the general feature in Ancient Might. A much more intuitive and effective name, related to both her ambitions and to her past.

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