What is wrong with mordor, and needs fixed in the next patch

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

Starting off:
Trolls. No one uses them, and there is a very good reason for it.
They are not effective vs Swordsmen. (They lose 1v1 vs fully upgraded  dol amroth swordsmen, while they are fully upped too (With mace, and sword they lost)
They are not effective in any way vs heroes. (Seriously, they are not)
They are not effective vs buildings (Towers kill them very fast)
They are not effective vs archers.
They are not effective vs spear-men (Seriously)

Suggestions:
Improve their role a bit more.
They should be strong vs spear men,  Swordsmen, , cavalry, buildings,hero units.
But weak vs heroes, archers, catapults. (VERY weak vs archers)
Think about bfme1's trolls.
They were super weak vs archers, but owned infantry such as spear-men, and swordsmen.

Every Mordor player says trolls suck.
I tried them out, and I agree.
Also, make their heavy armor give more health.
Make them 90 command points to balance these changes.

And Dol-gulder units should get more health
Spear-men: 350
Swordsmen: 250.
Spiders: 60 command points.

And a nerf should go to morgul riders, they are super overpowered.
Black riders needs to take some time to mount/dismount.

Last thing, werewolves should cost 1k, and be 60 command points. Do these, and the faction will be better.
I encourage anyone else to post their ideas here, to balance these out.

[CynasFan]

I think, the damage against buildings which they have now is very good.
One or two versions before this damage without hammer was damn too high, so high like a ramm, but in Middlegame and stronger against soldiers. But the damage with hammer now really could be better and the armor against building arrows could be better too.
To make them better against heroes when troll hold a sword is another good idea, but they shouldn´t be weak against spear-men. Spears are they´re natural conter.
Very weak against archers they shouldn´t become because archers are very strong against whole Mordor because they have only morgul riders and heroes as cavallerie (and giant elephants ).

The more health for Dol Guldur is good, Spiders I don´t use so can´t say anything to them

The morgul riders are strong, yes. But I can´t see were they are OP. The first riders cost over 4000 (building and riders) and they are only 3 times avaible.
Have you ever played 3.8? There they hasn´t a limit and this strength, that was OP and Mordor wasn´t the strongest faction at all
The Mount/dismount can´t be longer. Engine lose

Nothing against this for werewolfes

Sorry for my english, I´m German, but I hope you understand my positions for your concept.
Greetings, CynasFan

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

They're already are weak vs archers, I was just trying to balance them out being strong vs spears. But have you seen bfme1 trolls? 

Morgul riders are strong enough to kill un-upgraded tower guards 1v1, getting a morgul fortress early on is devastating for Gondor. I am saying that from experience, and this was before the tower guard did 15% less damage.

What I am saying is make them weaker vs spears, and they'll be balanced.

For spiders, I feel 90 command-points makes them .... not a good idea to buy, and make free.

This is copying someone else's idea, but maybe make the spiders regular cavalry? (Can squish infantry etc.)

atm, they are useless.(spiders)

I am okay with them being weak to spears, if it means they are buffed vs other things, the thing is they aren't actually that strong vs swordsmen, which have always been in every Bfme game their greatest strength. (Which is why trolls were used so much in Bfme1,Bfme2,Rotwk, and of course they were strong vs buildings, and towers too)

The thing about trolls is, you've divided their strengths up (Hammer or sword,or mace, they can be Strong vs buildings or High damage vs units, or just do more area damage. The thing is, they had all 3 at once in vanilla Rotwk, so they are by default, less effective than vanilla Rotwk.)

Can't they make the black riders take just as long as say, Theodon to dismount/mount?.

I think I recall Rj rotwk having a unit called Royal Guards, which could dismount/mount normally.

[hoho96]

Can't they make the black riders take just as long as say, Theodon to dismount/mount?.

I think I recall Rj rotwk having a unit called Royal Guards, which could dismount/mount normally.

Black Riders aren't an elite unit, but a hero unit which is also tied to Sauron's system. It's quite more complicated than what you would think.

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

Black Riders aren't an elite unit, but a hero unit which is also tied to Sauron's system. It's quite more complicated than what you would think.
[/quote]



Can't you just add a code to make them dismount/mount normally? 
such as:
Behavior = ToggleMountedSpecialAbil ityUpdate ModuleTag_HorseToggle
       SpecialPowerTemplate    = SpecialAbilityToggleMoun ted
       
       TriggerInstantlyOnCreate = Yes  ;Instantly puts Theoden on a horse.
 
       UnpackTime              = 2000
       PreparationTime         = 1 
       PersistentPrepTime      = 250
       PackTime                = 2000
       
       OpacityTarget         = .3      ; How see-thru to be at peak of change
   

I don't think being bound to Sauron changes their dismount

It is quite over-powered that they can instant mount/dismount. They can just squish forever if you spam the hotkey for mount/dismount when they are squishing. (They dismount, then once they mount again their crush declaration gets reset,meaning endless trample if you abuse it)

[Skeeverboy]

Every Mordor player says trolls suck.

Who says that?

And Dol-gulder units should get more health

Dol Guldur Orcs make more Damage, Morgul Orcs have more armour.

And a nerf should go to morgul riders, they are super overpowered.

Dol Amroth Rider and Rohans Rider are stronger.

Black riders needs to take some time to mount/dismount.

It isn't possible, because they are a battalion and not normal units.

Last thing, werewolves should cost 1k, and be 60 command points.

Werwolf are to good siege weapons to cost 1k.

[Gnomi]

Can't you just add a code to make them dismount/mount normally? 

No, this doesn't work for hordes, it works just for single units.

[Melkor Bauglir]

@CynasFan: Morgul riders were useless in 3.8.1. You took Minas Morgul because of the Witch King and maybe the morgul orcs, especially because he speedleveled Sauron once he had his mace. Apart from that even he was only required because Mordors strongest playstyle (orcs + catapults) was forbidden. (So they just spammed heroes like the others. ) Only the AI used them massively.

I don't really know werewolves but if they are as strong (say weak) as Gorthaur as a werewolf and their damage versus fortified buildings isn't much stronger than against farms, than they are too weak. Maybe their strenght is fine, but their cost could be like 400 less and 120 CP is way too high. 90 is much more realistic.

I don't really think trolls are weak against buildings, though, however they should definitely counter swordsman if fully upgraded.
I agree with the spiders, however it may make them more interesting if you'd buff them elsewhere than just straight stats -like increase their respawn rate massively or something. Super strong spiders in close combat would feel a bit out of character.

Edit: And I have to add, that Gorthaurs werewolf- and vampire-form seem a bit weak (I'm talking only about a level 10 Gorthaur). In his werewolf-form he refused to deal damage against a farm (not even level 2) -perhaps his attacks are stronger against units, though.
His vampire-form however really needs a buff: One horde of gondor-archers (no upgrades even without banner and definitely without leadership) was shooting at him and he took around 10% of his HP every round of arrows. This is especially problematic because his spells (passive damage aura and "Eternal thirst") require him to get close to enemies and "Darken the sky" only covers a very little area (hope the name is right, I'm talking about the spell where he summons a second swarm of bats weakening enemy archers). I'm willing to bet that a moderately observant enemy player can just oneshot a Gorthaur-bat if he happens to cross their army. So because of his cooldowns between his shapeshiftings I don't see any sense in his vampire-form.
It's generelly an interesting concept: He can't attack directly, so he needs time in order to deal damage. However his level 10 ability "Eternal thirst" is an instant damage ability and "Darken the sky" is also most powerfull in very short fights when the enemy hasn't time to get out of it's radius. So there is very little synergy between his spells.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[CynasFan]

Ok, for me morgul riders wasn´t useless but...whatever

I think the werewolfes are weaker than Gorhtaur and so the costs, the CP and the time for recruiment is too high.
Greetings, CynasFan

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

And a nerf should go to morgul riders, they are super overpowered.

Dol Amroth Rider and Rohans Rider are stronger.

They are pretty much the same. All heroic cavalry is overperforming atm, their damage output is incredibly high while they are not bothered by anything except massive amounts of upgraded pikemen.

Trolls being countered by swordsmen (even upgraded elite) should not be the case, although the weapon choice is important. I really can't imagine any non-hero-melee beating a troll with his baseball bat, even pikemen have a hard time against the massive aoe damage output.

[ziqing]

I want to add one thing, consider the goals that could level up Sauron,

If focusing on orcs(build slave farm):
(1) Get Cirith Ungol unit
(2) Get lv 5 hordes
(3) Get 20 hordes
(4) Get 10 overseers

If focusing on trolls
(1) Get 4 trolls
That's about it.

[Melkor Bauglir]

I'm pretty sure they are all already included.
I might however have missed your point, sorry about that, if that's the case.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

Every Mordor player says trolls suck.

Who says that?

And Dol-gulder units should get more health

Dol Guldur Orcs make more Damage, Morgul Orcs have more armour.

And a nerf should go to morgul riders, they are super overpowered.

Dol Amroth Rider and Rohans Rider are stronger.

Black riders needs to take some time to mount/dismount.

It isn't possible, because they are a battalion and not normal units.

Last thing, werewolves should cost 1k, and be 60 command points.

Werwolf are to good siege weapons to cost 1k.

\

I have told you. every Player says trolls suck, and they really do considering what they should be.

Dol gulder orcs do need more health, because morgul over shadows them a bit right now.
And I think all heroic cavalry should get  a nerf to pike resistance.

No not really, they are 2k and 120 cp, and die pretty fast, and can you consider how hard it is to get them? Level 10 sauron, then Gourthar.
If they are that hard to get, they should be better.

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

They are pretty much the same. All heroic cavalry is overperforming atm, their damage output is incredibly high while they are not bothered by anything except massive amounts of upgraded pikemen.

Trolls being countered by swordsmen (even upgraded elite) should not be the case, although the weapon choice is important. I really can't imagine any non-hero-melee beating a troll with his baseball bat, even pikemen have a hard time against the massive aoe damage output.

Upgraded pikemen do not have any trouble vs upgraded trolls.
And upgraded swordsmen do decent enough damage that the trolls are not that effective vs them.
Every bfme game, swordsmen have done a small amount of their normal  damage to trolls, yet for some reason they do full damage vs trolls in edain, and that caused them to be in-effective.
And I agree on heroic cavalry over-performing right now, they all need a nerf (But, of  course royal guards, rohan is having enough problems right now)

[ziqing]

I'm pretty sure they are all already included.
I might however have missed your point, sorry about that, if that's the case.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Are you speaking to me?

I know these conditions are all included, I am saying I could level up Sauron a lot faster if I focus on orcs

[Skeeverboy]

I have told you. every Player says trolls suck, and they really do considering what they should be.

I'm a Mordor Player and I don't say that Trolls sucks.

No not really, they are 2k and 120 cp, and die pretty fast.

Than don't run in spears.

And I think all heroic cavalry should get  a nerf to pike resistance.

The only heroic cavalry that needs that are the Dol Amroth, because they can run easy over spears. The rest become enough spear damage.

I know these conditions are all included, I am saying I could level up Sauron a lot faster if I focus on orcs

Than do you want that Mordor are just trolls? Trolls are a part of Mordors army, how siege weapons, Nazgûl, Haradrim,... but the importent part of Mordors army are orcs.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Upgraded pikemen do not have any trouble vs upgraded trolls.
And upgraded swordsmen do decent enough damage that the trolls are not that effective vs them.

Yea, I just ran a test. The problem is that upgraded trolls don't do enough damage against armoured opponents. It takes a while to kill them because they do knockback, especially with the baseball bat, but they could be a bit killier imho. With all upgrades, a troll costs up to 1300, that should be enough to kill upgraded swordsmen for roundabout the same price.
I would be careful though, because their huge disruption is already very powerful, especially against cavalry. Archers are having a field day when the enemy is just lying on the ground the entire time.

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

Upgraded pikemen do not have any trouble vs upgraded trolls.
And upgraded swordsmen do decent enough damage that the trolls are not that effective vs them.

Yea, I just ran a test. The problem is that upgraded trolls don't do enough damage against armoured opponents. It takes a while to kill them because they do knockback, especially with the baseball bat, but they could be a bit killier imho. With all upgrades, a troll costs up to 1300, that should be enough to kill upgraded swordsmen for roundabout the same price.
I would be careful though, because their huge disruption is already very powerful, especially against cavalry. Archers are having a field day when the enemy is just lying on the ground the entire time.

True, but would you get a troll cage instead of another orc pit (For spamming), or another tribute camp for more evil men, just for knockback?
The problem is the trolls need better upgrades, when they get their troll armor, they should get 6000 health, because they should be Mordor's answer to upgraded troops.
The trolls need to become the main unit in mordor like bfme1,bfme2,and rotwk vanilla.
Mordor players should be able to buy trolls to counter upgraded units. (except of course the spear-men, but they have black uruks for that)

Heroes are too strong vs trolls.
Why?
Because, all players need to do to counter trolls is place some high damaging hero in their army, and bam, trolls can't do their share of damage.
It's bad enough that spears can easily kill them.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

If i get it at all, I usually get a troll cage much earlier, and then I build my strategy around that. Meaning that I go for troll discount, for example. Trolls do give you harassment potential, that you normally have none of with Mordor. This allows a more aggressive playstyle and usually works best vs Rohan and in a mirror. Gondor and the dwarves are very strong defensive factions, which makes harassment harder, while Isengard has easy access to archers with their scouts.
This strategy does hurt your economy compared to an orc spam, which means that your first outpost will be delayed, which is quite risky. So you have to make those trolls count. If their impact isn't great enough, you're usually too far behind to win the game. At the point where bigger numbers of archers and herokillers (btw, I'm totally ok with them doing a great job vs trolls since they are single entities) hit the field, trolls don't do very well any longer, so if you are missing an outpost at that point, you're in trouble.

TL;DR: I use trolls early on, with upgrades they scale into the midgame. After that, you need leveled heroes and outpost units.

[Gandalf The Gray]

trolls dose not die by a sword guys that fast its ok if they die by spear guys becasue they kill monsters archers and towers should make a lot of dmg to trolls because trolls can easy destroy buildings thats why you have some catapults kill the towers and then unleash the trolls