Greed power change

[Adrigabbro]

By the time I first posted these ideas I've changed my mind about Lone Tower, it is a fine spell ; after all Cloud Break/Eagles are two spells that are shared by at least two factions and I'm ok with that, so I guess Lone Tower is fine.

Greed is another matter: I don't think I have ever picked that spell ever since Dwarves are out. Your idea looks interesting but we would lose the Balrog aspect. Plus low Theoden got an ability like the one you suggest.

[Odysseus]

Hmm yes. Thank you for answering.
Technically, the Balrog only affects gameplay negatively I would argue. I wouldn't see a problem if it were removed. While the lore aspect is interesting, the Balrog only appeared due to excessive mining in Khazad-Dum, which is a massive mine, not like the typical dwarven mine, but that aside, I only use it when I need quick cash and am desperate. I always try to use it on a unupgraded mine, and when I see that the Balrog appears, I quickly delete the mine before the Balrogs nicks it. I don't recall if that refunds some of the price. I might be mistaken. It's become sort of a habit haha.

[bookworm1138]

i got to use Greed to wipe out some enemies who were attacking one of my mines. Please don't change it.

[Adrigabbro]

That's not really the purpose of this spell though. For this reason I think your comment proves the contrary of your point : it needs to be changed because it is not used the way it should be.

[korner]

That's not really the purpose of this spell though. For this reason I think your comment proves the contrary of your point : it needs to be changed because it is not used the way it should be.

How do you know that this is not the purpose?

Isn´t it quite nice to have a "risky" spell in the spellbook which might give you extra ressources or destroy your own mine?
And using this spell against the enemy is even more interesting!
By the way: if you use that spell the way bookworm described, you always risk giving extra money to the enemy instead of destroying his army with the balrog!

I think that is a quite cool extra feature of that spell.

[Adrigabbro]

Well, it seems quite obvious ; at least I thought so. 
Take the example of Khazad-Dum: dwarves have mined so deeply (i.e. because  they wanted more gold) but they eventually awoke the balrog who destroyed everything.
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I believe that's exactly what the team tried to do with that spell: you want extra money, but in doing so you're willing to take the risk to lose your mine.

It is way different- and I think I can also use the word contradictory- to what you are suggesting: trying to wreck enemy forces by taking the risk to giving them more money.

I'm sorry but I cannot agree with you.

[Skeeverboy]

When I'm not wrong you can use this Spell on the ressource buildings from your enemy. When it's the Balrog the res. building will destroy, when it's money you can take it before your enemy comes.

[Odysseus]

Oh really? Like an enemy dwarven mine or something else? That would be really funny and weird at the same time, though.

[CragLord]

I also didn't know this ability could be used on the resource buildings from enemy. Only if enemy building is mine or in any case? If it is in any case that should be changed, simply it is not lore friendly or logical in any term.

I think we should ask moderator to rename this topic to "Greed power change" or something similar, because Lone Tower is totally out of discussion now. This is just my opinion.

I expressed my opinion about this matter some time ago, I think Balrog should stay, it is really nice power in my opinion (in lore and usage). Just what I really don't like is way we get that money. Chests are too risky, way in which we get that money is risky at first place, why then there should exist possibility of stealing those resources?  Simply I am only for change of instant getting those resources instead we must collect them. Spell is risky enough with out that in first place if we look on it as resource gain power in some way... Simply keep Balrog Effect and disable possibility of stealing that resources which are created in very hard way.

Regards,
CragLord

[Adrigabbro]

Done. I also closed the poll which has become irrelevant.

[™Æ¿® Aragorn £ ‡™]

What if instead of a balrog, 10-40  goblin creeps come out of the mine?                            That way you have a shot at saving your mine if it summons something besides gold           

[Adrigabbro]

Hey, that's a good idea!
Why not go further? Something like four options:
- Instant 1500 gold (10% chance)
- Instant 750 gold (40% chance)
- Goblins (40% chance)
- Balrog (10% chance)

[Odysseus]

That's actually a pretty decent idea! I like the iteration.
Although, I'd like to know what the idea behind this ability is from the balancers, so that we can perhaps adjust it along those lines. Personally, I would tweak the values so that it is a bit more likely to get resources instead of the creeps and the balrog instead of an equal chance, since it is a level 3 power after all, it needs to be somewhat more certain of rewarding the player.

I personally dislike abilities based on luck and randomness in competitive play, but I guess Edain is not the most competitive mod out there. Prove me wrong, will you !

[Walküre]

Hey, that's a good idea!
Why not go further? Something like four options:
- Instant 1500 gold (10% chance)
- Instant 750 gold (40% chance)
- Goblins (40% chance)
- Balrog (10% chance)

As I'm not primarily a Balance Tester, I can't really express something definitive about each value proposed.
But, conceptually, I totally support the idea 

Goblins could definitely represent a wise negative effect in the middle, between being rewarded with the treasures that the Dwarves found and facing directly the Bane of Durin.
Not to mention that it would be very lore accurate and particularly significant, an overview of what this race has always had to deal with along its History.

[Melkor Bauglir]

To be honest: I hate the current design of this power (RNG, without so many RNG-events that it becomes manageable by an average result...) and really hope it will get reworked and changed into something reliable. Which of course does not mean, it shouldn't possess a risk -I love the idea of "Greed" to have the opportunity of backfiring, but this complete, uncontrollable randomness is just bad, IMO!

This also means that you technically can't balance this spell, in a certain way: It is either a straight loss or a straight win. You can make both version appropriately strong and equal the risk and reward, but real balance is just not possible. Adrigabbro's ideas seem fine, though.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir