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Umfrage

Should flying units be stronger against siege weapons and buildings?

Yes, They should be stronger against siege weapons and buildings
51 (48.6%)
They should be stronger only against siege weapons
49 (46.7%)
They should be stronger only against buildings
1 (1%)
No, They don't need to change
4 (3.8%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 97

Autor Thema: Flying units  (Gelesen 13267 mal)

Draco100000

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #15 am: 13. Aug 2015, 18:35 »
I think they should deal much more damage to siege weapons, especially catapults. However I'm not too sure about buildings damage, since buildings are very likely made of concrete stone and I can't see how an eagle could damage stone.
Very interesting argument but this is just a game, not a simulator. How can swordsman, fire arrows, hammers or ents with melee attack destroy the stone?  8-|

Also, they would be overpowered if they were good against siege weapons, buildings AND units.
So, you're saying that eagles are overpowered in bfme 1, bfme 2 or 3.8.1. :o

Eagles wasnt OP on previous versions because of the enormous dmg of Archers and towers. Now archers have much less dmg so Eagles and fell beast must be do reduce dmg to something, or good against Units, or good against structures and sieges, not both things at the same time.

Altarius

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #16 am: 13. Aug 2015, 18:46 »
I think that the Flying Units should be better against Siege Equipment especially, but also Buildings.
They are currently near-useless against both, and so they are not worth using unless you are Mordor looking for the Ring with a Ring-Hunter.
An Eagle or Fell Beast, and especially a Dragon, should be able to break Siege-Equipment and Buildings. The comment about Eagles smacking into a Brick-Wall is not exactly true because they can instead use their strong wings and claws to pull the building apart, rather than blunt-force break them.

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #17 am: 13. Aug 2015, 19:13 »
I think that the Flying Units should be better against Siege Equipment especially, but also Buildings.
They are currently near-useless against both, and so they are not worth using unless you are Mordor looking for the Ring with a Ring-Hunter.
An Eagle or Fell Beast, and especially a Dragon, should be able to break Siege-Equipment and Buildings. The comment about Eagles smacking into a Brick-Wall is not exactly true because they can instead use their strong wings and claws to pull the building apart, rather than blunt-force break them.
true but still the balance the flying units should be strong against units on the ground but weak against archers but not buildings atleast not so strong

TiberiusOgden

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #18 am: 16. Aug 2015, 22:39 »
According to poll and discussion - flying units should be definitely stronger and more effective against siege units and we can say that "normally" stronger against buildings as well.
I think that argument for it can be that feelbeasts are very expensive units and eagles are available only for some time.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Aug 2015, 22:47 von TiberiusOgden »

Darkslayer

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #19 am: 23. Aug 2015, 19:01 »
As Adiggabro said, eagle or feelbeast vs. stone = stone wins. ^^

Not Smaug though  :P

Walküre

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #20 am: 23. Aug 2015, 19:08 »
Not Smaug though  :P


Smaug is kind of another matter  :)

He will be the most powerful hero of the Misty Mountains and the Ring Hero too, having access to a wide range of destructive abilities; don't mind him  ;)

Odysseus

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #21 am: 27. Sep 2015, 13:31 »
Good day,

I am a little late on joining this discussion, but nonetheless I joined in.

I think what must be taken into consideration is the role of these aerial entities in the movie, in the classic BFME game, in the Edain mod and perhaps the view of the team on them and what kind of role the team wishes to have for them.

In the movies, they were primarily used to disrupt unit formations and cause terror and panic amongst enemy ranks and in the siege of Minas Tirith, we could occasionally see Fellbeasts disrupting trebuchet crews.

This is also largely what they did with them in the most recent Edain patches and that's (largely) the role they perform as of now. One could say that it is simply a change of role and we have to adapt since we are so used to them being strong against most entities.

However, I do think they need a slight little boost, since the damage they deal to siege engines and buildings has not been nerfed, it has practically been gimped to the point of being questionable. It takes them ages to even remotely damage a building. I think a squad of ork labourers does more damage (I'm exaggerating ofc) than the aerial units against buildings and siege engines.

I do think a buff is in order, if only a small one, since it will force the opponent to react, forcing the siege engines to relocate and your opponent to move his archers to defend the building against aerial threats.

However, I do not think that they are useless. I think their attack frequency is spot on and I find them to be very useful in dealing with blobs. A decent opponent will be forced to react instead of taking massive losses from them, so they are already effective as both disruption and a psychological threat, but maybe just a little on the underperforming side. They don't need to take down a building on its own of course.

All of this is neatly counter-balanced by the fact that they have relatively slow attack speed, are very vulnerable to arrows, take massive damage from single target abilities and, in the Eagles' case, possess a timer.

I hope the team will at least consider some of it.

Kind regards.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Adrigabbro

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #22 am: 24. Nov 2015, 17:36 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhjCbuZj7sA

I had to bring this topic to date after watching this replay from Isil. ^^

Even if you watch no more than half of the video, you will see that it is very hard to counter  multiple catapults, especially with elves who have no real cavalry (by the way, I agree they didnt play perfectly in the video because none of the three elves even thought about beornings who would have been undoubtedly helpful).

That's why I think the team needs to raise the damage of flying units against siege weapons. It would be a nice counterplay to catapults, not too frustrating given the cooldown of the eagles/how hard it is to get fellbeasts.


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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #23 am: 24. Nov 2015, 18:04 »
Linking a timestamp of eagles/fellbeasts vs catapults would be helpful, the video is quite long. ;)

Adrigabbro

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #24 am: 24. Nov 2015, 18:15 »
Well, the only time he summons the eagles is 59:50, but they don't really focus the catapults. My comment doesn't follow a particular minute of the video but more like a global feeling.


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Odysseus

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #25 am: 24. Nov 2015, 20:11 »
I hear you man. At least against siege weapons, they could use some improvements, in my opinion. I am indifferent with how flying units perform against buildings, but siege weapons are incredibly effective in Edain, even more so than in vanilla, in my opinion because they are less vulnerable and have thus fewer counters. I can take down a 3000+ fortress with two battering rams worth a total of 600 when supported by a few troops. I hope that at least that siege, which is made of wood and carried by flesh, would be more vulnerable overall. I think the spamming of battering rams and catapults is still very much a thing, but I suppose that is off-topic. Factions that lack cavalry have a tough time dealing with a wall of catapults.

I wonder if it will ever return... I sure hope ET is willing to test that change at the very least.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

CragLord

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #26 am: 24. Nov 2015, 21:21 »
Results of poll are pretty clear, some improvement should be done. :)
Personally I voted for first option, because I dare to say, not all building are of dwarven or metal quality in game, in that kind of thinking I think damage of those flying units do should be increased against buildings in not so greater scale. No matter about that opinion of mine, I really think change which is of primary importance is increase of damage against siege weapons. For example I don't know do you know, but approximately  around 10 or even more hits from Eagle is needed to destroy Mordor's catapult (Last time when I played in this situation). So is that normal? It is serious "lapsus" in game in my opinion! Or Mordor's catapults are made of titanium?  :D
Increase of damage against siege is really important in current situation.

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 25. Nov 2015, 02:46 von CragLord »

Walküre

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #27 am: 25. Nov 2015, 02:47 »
I agree with CragLord.
And, I too was among the ones who supported the option of an improvement, against structures as well in my case.

As far as I can say as a Moderator, this thread made possible a serious and constructive debate, and the poll was like a very clear and legitimate reflection of this (like all polls shoud be), via which the majority of the English Community largely expressed the desire of a change, whether structures are involved as well or not.

Therefore, I can't really do something more other than waiting for the feedback of the Edain Team as everyone else  :)
Or, if someone wants to express other further opinions, it's obviously and welcomingly legitimate to do it.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #28 am: 25. Nov 2015, 07:10 »
Joining in late, but I also agree that flying units definitely need to do more damage to siege weapons, and buildings would be nice too.
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CragLord

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Re: Flying units
« Antwort #29 am: 29. Nov 2015, 16:26 »
So, I have finally checked, it took 12 times for an eagle to hit a Mordor's catapult in order to destroy it.
I summoned 3 eagles, and they needed 4 times to hit it together so that it could be destroyed.

I honestly find it very unbalanced.
A spell like that might 'risk' to end up being not as useful as a spell of this kind ought to be.
I totally back all the proposals raised to our attention in this thread, and I sincerely wait for an official response by the Edain Team  :)

Best Regards,
Crag
« Letzte Änderung: 29. Nov 2015, 18:56 von CragLord »