New design for the Dwarven units

[Hüter]

Just yesterday I saw a video on Youtube which was probably taken from BOTFA Extended Edition, where they explained why the dwarves from Thorin's company fought without their very heavy armours in the last battle: The actors just were unable to somehow move and fight even only in green screen. So, they decided to let them do the scenes in their lighter armours. I have Extended Edition of LOTR and watched all the making ofs, and I can't remember same things for LOTR. So what I mean is just that they have done pretty of overkill in some situations. These "boar-listas" are one of those things. The question therefore is not, if they worked, but if they worked better than a simple crossbow. In addition, they look needlessly heavy and difficult to carry, so why would they use them?

[LordDainIronfoot]

Well just try to remember that in The Hobbit you do not have Clothe Wearing Elves and Men with Range Outfit or Armor which is basicaly wearing only Armor in Gondor case!
In the Hobbit as you Can see Elven Soldiers moved quite easily and even were able to shoot Fighting Battle scenes! :-) Same actually goes for the IHs Extras who shoot Battle.scenes if you have wathced them! :-) So there is not so vig of a Problem there! :-) Now take into consideration that Thorin Company haf multiple layers of Prosthetics,Clothes,Fst Suit and then Armor and all of thar made it almost impossible for them to Move Normally,while Men in LOTR weared only Armor and Elves in yhe Hobbit mostly Ears and nothing else!So I hope you get my point there! :-)

About the Boar Lista it was a Special Heavy Crossbow made fpr dealing with Heavy Armored and Big Targets like TrollsWargs and many others which are Enemies of the Dwarves so yes there is use and purpose for them! :-) And then WETA had smallet Crossbows,notmal Crossbows with just IHs Boar Style and even made Multiple Arrow Crossbows with like 5-6 Bolts so there isn't only the Boar Lista which is Speaciap Ranged Weapon for Speacial Targets ! :-)

Greetings! :-)

[calsash]

Well just try to remember that in The Hobbit you do not have Clothe Wearing Elves and Men with Range Outfit or Armor which is basicaly wearing only Armor in Gondor case!
In the Hobbit as you Can see Elven Soldiers moved quite easily and even were able to shoot Fighting Battle scenes! :-) Same actually goes for the IHs Extras who shoot Battle.scenes if you have wathced them! :-) So there is not so vig of a Problem there! :-) Now take into consideration that Thorin Company haf multiple layers of Prosthetics,Clothes,Fst Suit and then Armor and all of thar made it almost impossible for them to Move Normally,while Men in LOTR weared only Armor and Elves in yhe Hobbit mostly Ears and nothing else!So I hope you get my point there! :-)

About the Boar Lista it was a Special Heavy Crossbow made fpr dealing with Heavy Armored and Big Targets like TrollsWargs and many others which are Enemies of the Dwarves so yes there is use and purpose for them! :-) And then WETA had smallet Crossbows,notmal Crossbows with just IHs Boar Style and even made Multiple Arrow Crossbows with like 5-6 Bolts so there isn't only the Boar Lista which is Speaciap Ranged Weapon for Speacial Targets ! :-)

Greetings! :-)

Explained perfectly Dain

[Hüter]

Well just try to remember that in The Hobbit you do not have Clothe Wearing Elves and Men with Range Outfit or Armor which is basicaly wearing only Armor in Gondor case!
In the Hobbit as you Can see Elven Soldiers moved quite easily and even were able to shoot Fighting Battle scenes! :-) Same actually goes for the IHs Extras who shoot Battle.scenes if you have wathced them! :-) So there is not so vig of a Problem there! :-) Now take into consideration that Thorin Company haf multiple layers of Prosthetics,Clothes,Fst Suit and then Armor and all of thar made it almost impossible for them to Move Normally,while Men in LOTR weared only Armor and Elves in yhe Hobbit mostly Ears and nothing else!So I hope you get my point there! :-)

I get your point here, and there is nothing to criticise about it. I never doubted about normal IH soldiers, indeed their armours were one of the things I liked most about BOTFA (and I am happy to see them now in Edain). My point though is that everything shown in LOTR concerning armour and weapons was functional and "slim"; in BOTFA some of the weapons and armours (far not all) and especially for the dwarves were just a little bit overloaded and too heavy (remember Gimli's armour and axes, which showed dwarvish culture and stile well, but looked very practical. I would have liked it, if they had followed that line a little bit more.
In German there is a saying: "Manchmal ist weniger mehr", which literally means "sometimes less is more".

With the "boar-listas" it's the same: I think they are just looking too much like some bad taste fantasy game, where blades are 5 m long and 50 cm large and crossbows look like the prototype of a gun (the multi-shot crossbow).
I get the idea of having a larger "calibre" against bigger creatures, but could they not have been shot from a bigger "normal" crossbow? And why have those things have to look so heavy? I cannot imagine any warrior who would like to carry them to the battlefield.

Greetings,
Hüter

[Fredius]

I get your point here, and there is nothing to criticise about it. I never doubted about normal IH soldiers, indeed their armours were one of the things I liked most about BOTFA (and I am happy to see them now in Edain). My point though is that everything shown in LOTR concerning armour and weapons was functional and "slim"; in BOTFA some of the weapons and armours (far not all) and especially for the dwarves were just a little bit overloaded and too heavy (remember Gimli's armour and axes, which showed dwarvish culture and stile well, but looked very practical. I would have liked it, if they had followed that line a little bit more.
In German there is a saying: "Manchmal ist weniger mehr", which literally means "sometimes less is more".

Gimli's armour is not a good example of how Dwarven armour should look like, it is perfectly described in the book that the IH dwarves wore full heavy armor when they arrived at the Lonely Mountain. What Gimli wore is definetly not Heavy armor. Just because plate armour is heavy it doesn't mean it's not functional, especially if you train a lot with it. It's far more flexible than you might think .

[Melkor Bauglir]

Gimli's armour is not a good example of how Dwarven armour should look like, it is perfectly described in the book that the IH dwarves wore full heavy armor when they arrived at the Lonely Mountain. What Gimli wore is definetly not Heavy armor. Just because plate armour is heavy it doesn't mean it's not functional, especially if you train a lot with it. It's far more flexible than you might think .

Well, you are right about heavy armour being more flexible, however I have to agree with Hüter: The Hobbit movies acted less restricted than the LotR movies concerning design. I personally enjoy such art, but watching the movies, I often wished their ideas would have been a little more contained.
Therefore if I have to be honest, I don't particularly like those "hand-ballistas". They fell just like a little overkill to me. (Note that I wouldn't mind, if the LotR movies were that free in their design, too, but equally good. However after the margin is set, such concepts go to wild for my taste.)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[LordDainIronfoot]

Well in LOTR Movie Gimli wear mostly traveling outfit which is basically Clothes with some or none Chain Mail here and there and a Bunch of Axes ,too many if you ask me! :-) So yeah Gimli doesnt count,in the Hobbit while they Traveled the Dwarves had quite similar to Gimli Traveling outfit and.moved freely and it was basically the same as what Gimli and his Actor had! :-)
About the Boar Lista beaing heavy ,well my friends keep in mind that we are talking about Dwarves which are much more stronger physically and have much more endurance and stamina than Human ,so for a Dwarf it is not so big problem,remember what kind of distance thet went trough in Full Heavy Gear and Supplies and arrived in no time and had plenty of strength left to fight,so I don't think it will be so much difficult or hard for them to wear and use the Boar Lista! :-)

Greetings! :-)

[Melkor Bauglir]

Sorry, but I just can't agree to that.
I am fine with leaving out Gimli as an example of a light-armoured dwarf eventhough my point wasn't that, because Gimli wore light armour, now every dwarf should. It was that I personally think a little more restraint would have been an extremely good advice for the designers of the Hobbit movies!
Now specifically concerning the crossbow: First of all I doubt that dwarves are so much more stronger than men. They might be very well stronger in relation to their size and their favourite jobs as smiths or miners do of course create very strong people and of course they are very stubborn. However they are still 2 heads smaller than humans, meaning they weight probably a lot less and physical work also strengthens a human. Let's say equally strong, but definitely not (massively) stronger by nature!
Secondly, I just don't like this crossbow's look. It looks to modern being completely covered with metal platings and I see no point for the dwarves ever to use such a weapon: If it were for a practical advantage, perhaps, but this just looks clunky!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[calsash]

Sorry, but I just can't agree to that.
I am fine with leaving out Gimli as an example of a light-armoured dwarf eventhough my point wasn't that, because Gimli wore light armour, now every dwarf should. It was that I personally think a little more restraint would have been an extremely good advice for the designers of the Hobbit movies!
Now specifically concerning the crossbow: First of all I doubt that dwarves are so much more stronger than men. They might be very well stronger in relation to their size and their favourite jobs as smiths or miners do of course create very strong people and of course they are very stubborn. However they are still 2 heads smaller than humans, meaning they weight probably a lot less and physical work also strengthens a human. Let's say equally strong, but definitely not (massively) stronger by nature!
Secondly, I just don't like this crossbow's look. It looks to modern being completely covered with metal platings and I see no point for the dwarves ever to use such a weapon: If it were for a practical advantage, perhaps, but this just looks clunky!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

"Dwarves were a proud and stern race and were made to be sturdy to resist the dangers of their time. They were physically very strong, had great endurance, especially in the ability to resist heat and cold, and they made light of heavy burdens." This description of the dwarves shows that they were much stronger than men, after all they were created from the stone itself by the valar Aule.

[Melkor Bauglir]

This description of the dwarves shows that they were much stronger than men

That is literally not standing there.
Strong: Yes, of course, that's what I just said. In average stronger than humans, because of what they do: Perhaps. Stronger by nature: No.
But I guess everything from my side is said, my counter-arguments are not that complex to continuesly repeat them. Only one point should be made clear: I am perfectly fine with your passion for the dwarves and personally I like such small changes. But this very specific modell (the crossbow) does not please me, also the new modells haven't even been released. And if their is something the beta has told us: There is always something done with the dwarves!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Walküre]

Sorry, but I just can't agree to that.
I am fine with leaving out Gimli as an example of a light-armoured dwarf eventhough my point wasn't that, because Gimli wore light armour, now every dwarf should. It was that I personally think a little more restraint would have been an extremely good advice for the designers of the Hobbit movies!
Now specifically concerning the crossbow: First of all I doubt that dwarves are so much more stronger than men. They might be very well stronger in relation to their size and their favourite jobs as smiths or miners do of course create very strong people and of course they are very stubborn. However they are still 2 heads smaller than humans, meaning they weight probably a lot less and physical work also strengthens a human. Let's say equally strong, but definitely not (massively) stronger by nature!
Secondly, I just don't like this crossbow's look. It looks to modern being completely covered with metal platings and I see no point for the dwarves ever to use such a weapon: If it were for a practical advantage, perhaps, but this just looks clunky!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

"Dwarves were a proud and stern race and were made to be sturdy to resist the dangers of their time. They were physically very strong, had great endurance, especially in the ability to resist heat and cold, and they made light of heavy burdens." This description of the dwarves shows that they were much stronger than men, after all they were created from the stone itself by the valar Aule.

Yes, I agree too.
Not only are the Dwarves more resistant to Magic, but they are undoubtedly stronger than Humans as well.

If we take into consideration the three races of Elves, Dwarves and Humans, the latter are definitely 'less gifted' by Nature (Ilúvatar) compared to the other two, especially when we refer to physical and natural characteristics, intended as the proper characteristics of each race that define them, as the Elven Immortality.

Obviously, if we consider the Men of Númenor, the standards might change a bit.
Given, though, that we mainly refer to the late Third Age and relative Men of Gondor and Rohan, the physical attributes of the Dwarves are still superior.

[Adamin]

Now hush boys! Be nice to each other, or I'll have to start moderating.

@ Calsash & LordDain:
Don't get too defensive without thinking about it. They have a point that the Hobbit Design is more fantastic than the LotR Design. I think it's great that more people are trying to give their input here.
Were is this quote about the dwarven strength coming from anyway?


@ Hüter:
Well you kinda shot yourself an own goal with your first post.
As you can read here from the chronicles Weta did built the boarbows as functional props. If someone knows how to do that, it's them.
But yeaaah, as you said, you're more interested in the usability. I'd say a crossbow is a pretty complicated weapon in every form. Cranking up the string is always hard. And a normal Crossbow-bow is also made of metal, so i guess it would have similar weight.

Honestly as I said I think the only downside to the boarbows is simply that they don't look like crossbows. But then again, that's kinda a very unique thing to achieve.

I think you're right that the Hobbit Props are far more stylized than some of the LotR Props. But I don't think that's a bad thing. After all the Hobbit always was the more playful book. "Realistic" is the wrong word to judge the designs by, because there simply are no real dwarves. So why should the dwarven gear be limited by what a realistic human can use? The better word to use is "practical" in my Opinion. And in that Weta is king.

In comparison to every other fantasy dwarf I always prefer the Weta ones. Their Armor, their used materials and workmanship makes sense in itself. Every Prop is made with the needed details to fulfill its purpose. All you have to do is assume that there is a dwarf that might fit into that.

Iron Man is a good example for that. They had a real metal suit made for the first movie. RDJ hated it, because he couldn't really move in it. So they made it fully with CGI, RDJ could perform to make us believe the suit could exist, and the movie was great.

I think that extra fantasy tick was only that much apparent in the Hobbit, because as Val said Elves and Humans are (visually) much more alike than Dwarves. There just were too few Dwarves in the LotR. Gimlis too much in traveller garb.
And it's not like there weren't any "unrealistic" elements in the LotR. Anyone remembers the Witchkings morning star, with the size of a small car?

[calsash]

Now hush boys! Be nice to each other, or I'll have to start moderating.

@ Calsash & LordDain:
Don't get too defensive without thinking about it. They have a point that the Hobbit Design is more fantastic than the LotR Design. I think it's great that more people are trying to give their input here.
Were is this quote about the dwarven strength coming from anyway?


@ Hüter:
Well you kinda shot yourself an own goal with your first post.
As you can read here from the chronicles Weta did built the boarbows as functional props. If someone knows how to do that, it's them.
But yeaaah, as you said, you're more interested in the usability. I'd say a crossbow is a pretty complicated weapon in every form. Cranking up the string is always hard. And a normal Crossbow-bow is also made of metal, so i guess it would have similar weight.

Honestly as I said I think the only downside to the boarbows is simply that they don't look like crossbows. But then again, that's kinda a very unique thing to achieve.

I think you're right that the Hobbit Props are far more stylized than some of the LotR Props. But I don't think that's a bad thing. After all the Hobbit always was the more playful book. "Realistic" is the wrong word to judge the designs by, because there simply are no real dwarves. So why should the dwarven gear be limited by what a realistic human can use? The better word to use is "practical" in my Opinion. And in that Weta is king.

In comparison to every other fantasy dwarf I always prefer the Weta ones. Their Armor, their used materials and workmanship makes sense in itself. Every Prop is made with the needed details to fulfill its purpose. All you have to do is assume that there is a dwarf that might fit into that.

Iron Man is a good example for that. They had a real metal suit made for the first movie. RDJ hated it, because he couldn't really move in it. So they made it fully with CGI, RDJ could perform to make us believe the suit could exist, and the movie was great.

I think that extra fantasy tick was only that much apparent in the Hobbit, because as Val said Elves and Humans are (visually) much more alike than Dwarves. There just were too few Dwarves in the LotR. Gimlis too much in traveller garb.
And it's not like there weren't any "unrealistic" elements in the LotR. Anyone remembers the Witchkings morning star, with the size of a small car?

The quote if from one of the Tolkien guide books I believe it to be a paraphrase of this quote from the silmarillion: "Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hunger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not forever."

[Adamin]

Thank you.
That quote I also know from the Silmarillion. And I would also say it means that the Dwarves were stronger than Men, even if it's not explicitly stated.

[Walküre]

That quote I also know from the Silmarillion. And I would also say it means that the Dwarves were stronger than Men, even if it's not explicitly stated.

Yes, this is what we were speculating about 

As a sort of specific degrees of characteristics, the Dwarves were definitely gifted more than Men about what we consider natural and strictly physical prerogatives, regarding their own material body and the very boundaries that the material Reality implies.

Obviously, one could say that Humans are in the end the most gifted among all, with the special Gift of Death that Ilúvatar granted them; but, since we are mainly referring to physical matters, Men are indeed affected more by all the natural burdens of the World, considering only the 'negative' aspects.

So, I think that we can say indeed that Dwarves are stronger by NATURE