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Autor Thema: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)  (Gelesen 18604 mal)

Skeeverboy

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #60 am: 28. Aug 2015, 18:14 »
I haven't know, that he was Isen, it was my first Rohan play in 4.1.2 :D
And I know that I haven't play good, but he have abload it without my permission :D
I have experiment on this Replay, not play right.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #61 am: 28. Aug 2015, 18:20 »
Even though I agree that Herr Skeever plays Mordor a lot better than Rohan :D , you KryPtik wouldn't have done anything like that for the only reason you could NOT have known how he started, because Rohan doesn't have any power to scout. But I agree with you on the idea: you have to harass as much as you can when you play Rohan, especially when you are facing Isengard. Skeever did not do it well in this replay. If you want to see Rohan winning Isengard, check one of my last replays in the strategy section (the game was played on Brandywine)
My strategy remains the same regardless of whether or not I know what my enemy is. Rohan needs to end the game quickly, because they stand no chance late game. So any good player is extremely aggressive, and I would have gone to his base even though I didn't know what faction he was. Once I saw he was Isengard, I would have just redoubled my efforts to bring him down quickly. Once the current beta is made public and I can play with normal people again, I'll happily 1v1 anybody who wants to as Rohan with them as Isengard, so I can show just how hopeless it is for Isengard. That won't be for a couple of weeks though, because of the beta :)

Also Skeever, sorry if I came off as rude, wasn't trying to be. I don't think people should require permission to upload replays though, if you are going to experiment you should probably do it offline against AI :P
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Mogat

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #62 am: 28. Aug 2015, 18:52 »
I'm ready to play a 1v1 at any time. In my opinion Isengart can beat rohan. You can proove me wrong if you want.


Cogito, ergo sum

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #63 am: 28. Aug 2015, 18:55 »
@Kryptik: Such an overly aggressive start will be punished by any player who knows that it might be coming though. Admittedly, i didn't play that matchup yet, so this is all theorycrafting; it still seems quite simple to me. Get the corrupted ground spell (whatever it is called) and the peasants will just die and feed my scouts. If I start with an uruk pit and one/two lumber mill(s) I can just counter your aggression by being aggressive myself, destroy your only farm and suddenly you are left with nothing but your citadel. Defense towers should also wreck your few peasants when they try to bring down my base.

And btw I'm also curious to play that matchup^^ (Kryptik, I'll send you a pm on how to switch between the beta and the official version)

Elite KryPtik

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #64 am: 28. Aug 2015, 19:25 »
Traitors beat scouts with Théoden's leadership and Horn of Rohan, even if fighting on Tainted Land. The only way to beat this strategy is to get Bill Ferny and level him up to level 10, but this leaves you with no money for economy buildings, while Rohan is getting tons of resources the whole time. You could also go and destroy my farm, if you were fast enough to get there before my peasants were made to protect it, but it will have already generated enough resources to get an inner farm, while I wreck all of your economy buildings. Also, like you said, you have to know its coming. Add in the ignorance of playing random vs random, and what you have is a loss for Isengard. Also, if you make towers to kill my traitors, I just switch targets to towers and quickly kill them, wasting 150 of your resources.

I'm ready to play a 1v1 at any time. In my opinion Isengart can beat rohan. You can proove me wrong if you want.
Yes, they do beat Rohan late game very easily, but a skilled, aggressive player can easily shut down and kill Isengard as Rohan.

I know how to change between normal and beta version, but I don't want to because I'm playing a lot of the beta to find bugs.
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Aug 2015, 19:28 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #65 am: 28. Aug 2015, 20:28 »
Offtopic, and quite hopeless qustion, but is there anything you are allowed to tell us about the beta? xD

Anyway, even though I appreciate very much those strategy talks, actual games are much better than thousand words to proove a point. :) Any tournament soon?  xD


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Mogat

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #66 am: 28. Aug 2015, 21:40 »
Elite KryPtik, I am talking about early and midgame not about lategame. We can play an 1v1 if you want, as soon as you switched versions to the current version.

And fighting traitors directly is foolish. Watch the replay and look how to use scouts vs traitors.

Towers are overly OP in this version, so if you fight the tower you will be hit by it and at the same time by scouts. --> you loose your traitors.

And by the way: it is completely useless to form theories in this thread how you "would have" if you can just try it in a real game.


Cogito, ergo sum

Elite KryPtik

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #67 am: 29. Aug 2015, 00:05 »
Agreed mogat, but I'm talking about killing the tower before it finishes construction. I'll be happy to play a round with you once beta is publicly released, and I hope you can prove me wrong and beat Rohan with Isengard early game. No I cannot share any details about the beta.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Skeeverboy

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #68 am: 29. Aug 2015, 00:09 »
Zitat
but I'm talking about killing the tower before it finishes construction.
Than Isengard consturct them, before your traitors are there.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #69 am: 29. Aug 2015, 01:45 »
Ok, here is a perfect demonstration of what I am talking about. Me against my friend, I am Rohan, he is Isengard. Now I should note that he isn't particularly great with Isengard, he is rusty(so am I, been like a week since I played online xD), and technically I am better than him, but it still demonstrates my points. He also doesn't make wildmen, but when I first attacked him I checked his available settlements, and if he did have a wildmen hut I would've killed it. Considering I launched my first attack on him in about 45 seconds, he only could have gotten maybe a single Wildman out, and I still would have killed the hut(cost 350)

I demonstrate in this game how you can lock an enemy Isengard inside their base, harass their inner economy buildings to keep them from gaining money, and finally how you can easily shut them down and kill them, even if they are spamming normal uruk-hai. The reason for this is the new cost for economy buildings, he still had 3 outer farms, but the pressure that I applied to him was too much. He simply could not meet the threat of my troop spam and get inner farms at the same time, because the outer farms produce so much less. Also, this shows how easy it is to kill the sentry towers early game, and why its impossible to defend. The Isengard player does not have enough resources to make enough sentry towers. I even fuck up my traitors, and have to do the job with normal peasants who are already weakened from creeping!

I'll be happy to play against anybody who wants to play Isengard and try to prove me wrong, but it will probably not be on Fords of Isen, I'm bored to death of this map. I played on Fords of Isen to demonstrate my point on the most frequently played 1v1 map.

Finally, I want to reiterate: I do NOT want to see Rohan nerfed any more. They have already been nerfed like crazy. What needs to happen is a buff to Isengard early game, to give them a way to counter the spam threat of both Mordor and Rohan.
« Letzte Änderung: 29. Aug 2015, 05:49 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Mogat

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #70 am: 29. Aug 2015, 19:29 »
Even tough I hate myself for deepen this dicussion and writing this post there are some things I would like to say.

I watched the replay you posted above and took myself some time to observe it carefully. So there are a few things I noticed which actually don't correspond with your describing of this replay being a "perfect demonstration" of your point.

Said in advance: I do not want to offend anyone by my analysis of this game. In fact I personally would be glad if someone spend his time and offered myself such a detailed analysis and critic. But enough of that, lets come to the main part of my comment:

1) Isengart didn't build any ressource-structures in the frist 2-3 minutes. Even though he had always about 500 ress the refused to build any kind building
--> Economy is far behind (btw.: why would you spend money for lutz level-up so early in the game when you don't even use them? You can easily buy it 1 minute later with having at least one ress-building)

2) Why is isen building furnaces? You have to get cheaper uruks and not cheaper upgrades to survive the eg/mg

3) when rohan attacked the base, isen was building a tower at the other side of the base, which couldn't even have protected the furnace.

4) the second tower was useless because it wasn't even protecting the first one

so what is the situation after rohans first attack?
--> no economy because no farms
--> no baracks
--> no troops
--> not even sufficent towers (only one) to protect the base from another runby

5) isen is neither building nor upgrading ress structures after he frist pushed you back
--> how is he supposed to defend with only his beginning troops+his eg-hero?
--> how is he supposed to reach mg with no economy in his main base, only having vulnerable outer ress-buildings?

6) when it came to the fight: Isen could easily have kited the peasents or at least shot at them while they were attacking buildings

All those mistakes I listed were severe and would have led by themselves to a game-loss

I hope my points were rather clear. As I said earlier this post is no offense but only a hint, that this replay isn't any kind of evidence.

I would be happy if anyone could proove in a 1v1 that isengard doesn't have any chance against eg-aggression, because every step we take will bring us nearer to a more balanced mod.


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Skeeverboy

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #71 am: 29. Aug 2015, 20:29 »
All what Mogat say is right.
Nothing against Sawman, but he isn't a good player.
Elite Kryptik you know how to change between Beta and 4.1.2. You can play one round against Mogat and you will see that Isengard can be very strong in EG.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: New unit for Isengard Early game. (+ ideas)
« Antwort #72 am: 31. Aug 2015, 03:18 »
Even tough I hate myself for deepen this dicussion and writing this post there are some things I would like to say.

I watched the replay you posted above and took myself some time to observe it carefully. So there are a few things I noticed which actually don't correspond with your describing of this replay being a "perfect demonstration" of your point.

Said in advance: I do not want to offend anyone by my analysis of this game. In fact I personally would be glad if someone spend his time and offered myself such a detailed analysis and critic. But enough of that, lets come to the main part of my comment:

1) Isengart didn't build any ressource-structures in the frist 2-3 minutes. Even though he had always about 500 ress the refused to build any kind building
--> Economy is far behind (btw.: why would you spend money for lutz level-up so early in the game when you don't even use them? You can easily buy it 1 minute later with having at least one ress-building)

2) Why is isen building furnaces? You have to get cheaper uruks and not cheaper upgrades to survive the eg/mg

3) when rohan attacked the base, isen was building a tower at the other side of the base, which couldn't even have protected the furnace.

4) the second tower was useless because it wasn't even protecting the first one

so what is the situation after rohans first attack?
--> no economy because no farms
--> no baracks
--> no troops
--> not even sufficent towers (only one) to protect the base from another runby

5) isen is neither building nor upgrading ress structures after he frist pushed you back
--> how is he supposed to defend with only his beginning troops+his eg-hero?
--> how is he supposed to reach mg with no economy in his main base, only having vulnerable outer ress-buildings?

6) when it came to the fight: Isen could easily have kited the peasents or at least shot at them while they were attacking buildings

All those mistakes I listed were severe and would have led by themselves to a game-loss

I hope my points were rather clear. As I said earlier this post is no offense but only a hint, that this replay isn't any kind of evidence.

I would be happy if anyone could proove in a 1v1 that isengard doesn't have any chance against eg-aggression, because every step we take will bring us nearer to a more balanced mod.

I'll just preface this as Mogat did by saying this response is not intended to be rude or offensive in any way, although it is perhaps a little blunt.
If you noticed, I did state in my post that I am better than Sawman, and that besides that he was very rusty. He does normally play better, and I'm not arguing that an incredibly skilled Isengard player could probably stand a chance early game. However, you also have to realize that most people aren't pro-good as Isen, and the average player would do about as good as Sawman, which is what my replay was meant to demonstrate. Also, this replay does indeed provide evidence that Isengard is weak in early game, because even if he had made towers near to his buildings I could have simply switched targets to kill them, wasting his resources. Also, if an Isen player makes all mineshafts and has super expensive upgrades, its very hard to counter Rohan mid-game spam of peasants with Gamling and captains, so its a tough call to make. If a player makes furnaces and manages to survive, and gets those upgrades fast, it can make a big difference.

To sum it up: Is this replay a perfectly balanced match between equally skilled players? No.
Does that automatically make this provide 0 evidence? Hell no. I demonstrated in my playing style how easily Isengard can be attacked and harassed early game, regardless of him misplacing towers and maybe not getting economy buildings fast enough. This could be considered representative of people who are never going to play this mod as addictively as some of us, and just how hard it is to master the early game of Isengard. Average players make mistakes, such as leveling up Bill Ferny at the incorrect time or misplacing towers, while an average Rohan player has a much easier time of it.

Skeever, I take offence to you saying that Sawman is not a good player. I can assure you he is, he was rusty after not playing for over a week, and Isengard is his worst faction. You shouldn't say people are not good based off of a single match. No harm done though :)

Final note, I was camping(In real life), which is why it took me a couple days to respond. I'll be happy to play a match against Mogat once I've rested and recovered for a few days, and had time to warm up.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!