[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions
Brief General Ideas
Halbarad:
I do agree with Necromancer and Walküre. Its a bit funny that Wargs are so extreme strong compared to trolls. Although I don't think that they are too strong. Its good that some neutral forces are not so easy to defeat.
I have some suggestions that could strength (troll) creeps:
- making them much more aggressive when being attacked and attack enemy's further away. So that they would also attack early archers like Gildor
- add a "rage mode" for trolls, when they do see enemy's for the first time in a long period, they get a boost in speed- and maybe also defense. So that tricking them with e. g. hobbit heroes gets a bit more difficult.
- giving some of them company by some orcs? Perhaps also so they could heal themselves from time to time by eating an orc
- let them hide inside the cave sometimes and come out again when the cage is being attacked
- add mist near to some caves. This would fit very well to Barrow-wights, but could also help trolls to not being seen from far away.
Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
Wargcreeps will give more xp when you kill them in 4.5 to make them a bit more worthwile. Further adjustments (especially to trolls) are possible, but they're not a priority.
Gnomi:
Most of Halbarad's suggestions won't hep, aren't possible or make it even worse, even though they are well-meant. Mostly it will worsen trolls even more.^^
--- Zitat ---- making them much more aggressive when being attacked and attack enemy's further away. So that they would also attack early archers like Gildor
--- Ende Zitat ---
This will cause more problems.
1.) You can use one bat to lure them further away and the rest of your soldiers will easily destroy the building.
2. Also it will be way easier for units to run circles, while other units attack the troll, as you have more room to run around.
--- Zitat ---- add a "rage mode" for trolls, when they do see enemy's for the first time in a long period, they get a boost in speed- and maybe also defense. So that tricking them with e. g. hobbit heroes gets a bit more difficult.
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Afaik they already have a similar mode - if they attack units, they will start running. (long period is not possible, but running, if they focus another unit is possible and I think they already have it. At least trolls in the normal game had it)
--- Zitat ---- giving some of them company by some orcs? Perhaps also so they could heal themselves from time to time by eating an orc
--- Ende Zitat ---
I don't know if it is possible for the trolls to eat orcs. Also I personally don't like the idea of having basically two lairs in one (orc+trolls). Also it caused a lot of problems in the past if troll camps had more than one unit. Quite often trolls bugged in the lair and never left it. THis would obviously make it weaker.^^
--- Zitat ---- let them hide inside the cave sometimes and come out again when the cage is being attacked
--- Ende Zitat ---
Not possible without bugs. We could use the system of the spider expansion of your castle in Bfme II... But trolls could still be attacked there and they would have a ton of animation bugs. The spiders in Bfme II also have them... they are just so small that you don't see them.
--- Zitat ---- add mist near to some caves. This would fit very well to Barrow-wights, but could also help trolls to not being seen from far away.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Here my main problem is that it would just look wrong for me. Why should troll lairs cause such a mist? For me it would seem forced and you could still attack with archers and another bat and kill it this way.
Note: I don't say that I am happy with the trolle. I think we need to change things about it... but those changes wouldn't help much.
Smeargollum:
Hello together!
I just want to add my thoughts about the topic troll-creeps (and maybe even creeps in general)! :)
I can understand your reasons for the suggestion you made Necro because it can be a bit strange that trolls are so easy to creep (with good micro even with only one sword batt :o) even though they give the most money (dragons not included).
But for me that is not necessarily a bad thing because it can bring a very nice dynamic to the game and the process of creeping. So not every creep is the same (the strength of the creep is not tied to the money you get from it).
So Orc and Wildmen creeps just level your units, give you some nice money and proteced a farm so you need some time to grap it (spiders are more or less the same imo). Warg creeps don't give you much xp and also not as much money as they could give for their strength, so they just delay your expansion.
But now trolls are pretty easy to creep and give you a lot of money (therefor don't protect a farm in the most cases --> you can't build an outside eco-building after creeping it). So all over it is much money for less effort and that makes it for me diffrent to all the other creeps and that is intresting ;)
That brings the dynamic that the other player will try to harras you while creeping the troll so you can't get this "free" money boost. And so on high level pvp games it is not seldom that it comes to "troll battels" in which both players try to steal the money of the troll the other player already creeped. So it is actually not that easy to get all the troll money for your own.
In a short form: I like it that not every creep is the same and so trolls give more money for less effort. That brings a dynamic in the game which is very nice to have in a game in my opinion. So I don't see a necessity to change this :)
I wrote this form the perspectiv of a pvp player so I can't say how it is in the sigle player.
I hope you can understand my german english :D
Best regards Smeargollum
Max_Power:
Hi!! Concerning warg and troll creeps: Trolls are quite good in my opinion, for the reasons Smeargollum commented above. Choosing between a bigger money boost (short term benefit) compared to a smaller one and a farm (long term benefit) it's interesting decision from a gameplay point of view. Also, the amount of units needed to creep the troll is flexible, allowing for more decisions (in pvp strictly). For example, I might find more efficient to creep the troll with scout plus one pike, and use other two swords to creep one wildman each. However, if my enemy scouts it, he can come with two sword battalions and deny my troll creep. So I need to take risky decisions, scout, react, etc. All this makes for very nice, dynamic early game.
About the wargs, it's a little different. In first place, I don't find them so difficult to creep, they take same micro than creeping a troll. They usually unlock a farm so they fall into the "long term benefit" category (for me). Also, most are easily avoidable and you don't necessarly need to creep them. However, if some situation requires a "slower" map advance (for example, dwarves benefit from closer mines and more map control in less distance), wargs can be creeped the same. The only issue I currently have with wargs is maybe too small experience reward: one sword battalion will level up from one or two wildman/orc creeps, one pike will level up from one troll creep, so maybe pikeman could be lvl 2 after a couple wargs creeped or something like that. Also, maybe the range is a bit high: once agroed, wargs chase you long distances at high speed, and sometimes heavily punishes getting near them... this depends a lot on the map as well. Considering they one-hit most infantry unit, I consider a bit annoying (without further reason) that this happens. I can be ok though if it has a determined purpose (like unlocking a more direct harassing path for your troops).
Of course, I am talking from a purely pvp point of view, and warg creeps usually annoy me [uglybunti]
Best regards,
MemePower MaxPower
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