Dain Ironfoot level 10 summon and Ram Riders?

[NetoD20]

I think we have the following Problem:
The Battle Wagon is a Unit with needs very much micro, more as a normal hero.

Multiplayer player how I liked units very much which needs more micro, for example Battle Wagons or heroes how Celeborn, because so we can improve our skill and use them better in every situation. This units aren't easy to use, but more often you use them they will be very much stronger as macro units.

Singleplayer players liked units with macro more, for example normal cavallery or heroes how Gandalf. This units are very easy to use and don't need very much skill to be good.

That means:
Multiplayer player liked Battle Wagons more, Singleplayer player want normal cavallery.

and pike tactics rendered the warwagons useless.

When I say that this isn't so, every good Multiplayer player will give me right, and all Singleplayer players will say that I'm wrong.

I think you're right on point in this multiplayer/sigleplayer duality. Being a singleplayer most of the time, but having played multiplayer on various occasions, I can agree with that.

But still, the thread and poll are about the implementation of Ram Riders. The weakness of Battle Wagons, mainly if compared with  regular cavalry, was brought up as a good reason for implementation of Ram Riders. But it's not itself the problem, the problem is people want to play with Ram Riders, and they don't care that much if this awesome-fun possibility can hurt balance a bit, even though they understand that they should be limited. People who prize balance and mechanics above the coolness of RRs don't want them in the game. But let it be clear that the people who want RRs don't simply support them because Battle Wagon is weak, they support RRs because of the unit in itself, because they would be fun to play with!

[Fredius]

I would lie if I say that I don't agree with Neto . I don't know about other people but on my part realism has a great effect on my decisions either, like I told you guys that every faction needs cavalry (and unless battlewagons come in hordes of 5 or 10, that unit can't be called cavalry).

[korner]

the problem is people want to play with Ram Riders

not everyone wants to play with them... please keep that in mind. Not only because of balance, some people just don´t like them. If you think they are awesome this is your opinion which not everybody has to share.

every faction needs cavalry

this may be right in a real world, but it does not automatically apply to a game.


- dwarves have no cavalry
- Rohan has few/ weak infantry
- Lothlorien has (or had in 3.81, don´t know how it´ll be in 4.2) no spears

this has nothing to do with "realism", it´s just something about game mechanics. Edain Mod is so popular BECAUSE every faction has his own, unique gameplay and character.
In my opinion, this should not be changed, because it´s the great advantage of Edain over all other mods (why are so few other mods still alive? Maybe because of this unique faction concepts??).

[Fredius]

every faction needs cavalry

this may be right in a real world, but it does not automaticinly apply to a game.


- dwarves have no cavalry
- Rohan has few/ weak infantry
- Lothlorien has (or had in 3.81, don´t know how it´ll be in 4.2) no spears

this has nothing to do with "realism", it´s just something about game mechanics. Edain Mod is so popular BECAUSE every faction has his own, unique gameplay and character.
In my opinion, this should not be changed, because it´s the great advantage of Edain over all other mods (why are so few other mods still alive? Maybe because of this unique faction concepts??).

First of all;  Lotlhorien has spearmen, and Rohan has infantry, even if they are weak they still have them. And when upgraded with armour and weapons they become a force to be reckoned with.

Secondly; we are talking about the Iron Hills subfaction, not the Dwarves in general. Giving the Iron Hills a cavalry unit distinguishes them from the other Dwarven realms; that makes them unique right? Isn't that what you want?

And about realism; that is indeed something that differs on opinion. But having more realism makes the game much better to me, because there are certain logics that apply to medieval battles. Like I said; to counter archers and to give you an advantage over superior infantry forces, you need cavalry.

[Skeeverboy]

Like I said; to counter archers and to give you an advantage over superior infantry forces, you need cavalry.

And here again: They have the Battle Wagon, which is a fast and very navigable Cavallery who can kill archers and infantry.

[Fredius]

Like I said; to counter archers and to give you an advantage over superior infantry forces, you need cavalry.

And here again: They have the Battle Wagon, which is a fast and very navigable Cavallery who can kill archers and infantry.

And yet again the Battlewagon is too weak to be called a cavalry unit; I already explained before how they have a support role and are not good to be used as a combat unit.

[Skeeverboy]

I find the Battle Wagon is better as all other normal cavallery, because it is very navigable, have a cask against pikes and can heal himself on level 2.

[Fredius]

Well that is ofcourse your opinion so I'll not go against it .

However; guys don't forget that the usage of battlewagons has been reduced to nothing since people had a more developed way to ride on horses. There is always a reason why something has ceased to exist.

[ringbearer]

I have to agree on that with Fredius , battlewagons were good cavalery in vanilla , but now they are , well , useless in combat. For me it's jusť supporting units , in defensive stance behind line.

[Adrigabbro]

I think the point some people, me including, are trying to make is that dwarves need serious cavalry options, whether improved battlewagons or Ram Riders. Because let's face it: battlewagons die ridiculously fast to enemy troops, even when there is no pikesmen.

[CragLord]

I think the point some people, me including, are trying to make is that dwarves need serious cavalry options, whether improved battlewagons or Ram Riders. Because let's face it: battlewagons die ridiculously fast to enemy troops, even when there is no pikesmen.

Agree totally with this.
As beta tester from my experience, I confirm this. That is mainly why battlewagons are support units in this moment, and there is no other smart way to play them. Simply if I try to play them otherwise, offensive, you need really "great" mircro skills to keep them alive. That isn't main reason (micro skills) to change them, but they are really weakened...

[korner]

I have to agree on that with Fredius , battlewagons were good cavalery in vanilla , but now they are , well , useless in combat. For me it's jusť supporting units , in defensive stance behind line.

I think the point some people, me including, are trying to make is that dwarves need serious cavalry options, whether improved battlewagons or Ram Riders. Because let's face it: battlewagons die ridiculously fast to enemy troops, even when there is no pikesmen.

If there is any unit which does not fullfill his job (by being to weak, too slow, whatever), the consequence should be to rework and improve that unit, rather then introducing another unit which makes the battlewaggon obsolete.

guys don't forget that the usage of battlewagons has been reduced to nothing since people had a more developed way to ride on horses. There is always a reason why something has ceased to exist.

given that dwarves were never known as people who cultivate animals in high quantity, nor have they been known as great riders, this "evolution" wouldn´t take place among them.
So the battlewaggon is still more fitting then riders among dwarves.

[Odysseus]

I somewhat agree. I am actually quite surprised though, to see more votes in the passively buildable Ram Riders than the summon. I thought a summon would have been the way to go and to keep it to a bare minimum (Due to Dwarves being infantry-centred) so that the core of the faction is not affected too much, but I'd love to see what a dev thinks.

I personally see no true harm in adding Ram Riders into such a limited function and I am a multiplayer-person, so balance is extremely important to me. Yes, Dwarves are currently the strongest faction, but will probably be tweaked/toned down a little (that's what my insticts tell me about ET anyway haha).

Furthermore, I see the lack of cavalry not only as a unique feature of the faction, but also as a unique weakness. When playing against dwarves, I never really need pikes. Archers are mostly the way to go against them, I feel. With the summon, you can temporarily cover that weakness, that lack of cavalry . Besides, you need to get Dain to level 9/10 for that ability in my proposal, so you'll barely see it. It is just something nice to strive for for the fans, while not being impossible to balance, from my point of view. It comes late, has a short duration and Iron Hills are light dwarven infantry, so mobility might apply better to that concept. I even compared them to Warg Riders, and gave some ways in how they could be diversified.

I hope, nonetheless, that they will share some of their thoughts.

[CragLord]

If there is any unit which does not fullfill his job (by being to weak, too slow, whatever), the consequence should be to rework and improve that unit, rather then introducing another unit which makes the battlewaggon obsolete.

Yes in first place, but there is also second option which could be also good in term of refreshing game with new stuff etc. If ET never add new units instead old one, we will never have this mod. So please, we will need better argument than that.

given that dwarves were never known as people who cultivate animals in high quantity, nor have they been known as great riders, this "evolution" wouldn´t take place among them.
So the battlewaggon is still more fitting then riders among dwarves.

And that is also your personal opinion, which could also be wrong.
For instance, what is pulling those wagons?

[Skeeverboy]

Yes in first place, but there is also second option which could be also good in term of refreshing game with new stuff etc. If ET never add new units instead old one, we will never have this mod. So please, we will need better argument than that.

You guys just say that Battle Wagons are to weak, this is the only argument you all have said.
Me an Korner say that they need a buff, so it fixed the problem. So you guys must say a new argument, why the ram riders must throw in.