The Road to Edain 4.0: Your feedback

[Walküre]

The Road to Edain 4.5: Isengard's new Spellbook.

[Trapper]

Thanks.

[Walküre]

You're welcome. Just the ordinary administration and management 

[Garlodur]

Great to see Isengard's Spell Book reworked. It's looking lovely and the revamp makes a lot of spells more appealing. I have some feedback and questions too:

The Vision of the Palantir spell now serves a clear role in the early game separated from the Crebain upgrade bought at the Citadel: great way of dividing these.

The Tainted Land spell I agree works much better with Isengard than in Mordor: it seems Saruman had much greater influence on the lands in less time than Sauron ever did in Mordor. This direct implementation of fast extension of defertilised land fits well with Isengard's concept of a growing industry.
When I wondered for myself what changes would be made in the Spell Books, I thought there might be a way to combine the spells of Devastation and Tainted Land, since they share the thematic of destroying nature, but then the strategic uses of the two spells differ significantly, so you made the right choice for balance over theme.

Regarding Saruman of Many Colours I am quite confused as it seems the power is barely improved but costs 3 Points more, whereas Gandalf the White in Gondor is improved much more and costs only 1 point more. I think their power should be similar, unless Saruman is already stronger than Gandalf the Grey, making both Spell upgrades rather a way of equalising their strengths.
I also find the description not suiting, since it is only implied in the movies that Saruman is doing Sauron's dirty work. In the books his motivations are much clearer, trying to find the One Ring for himself and rule all over Middle-Earth, and he defies the Nazgul when they have come to get rapport by lying to them about his knowledge of the Shire and Gandalf. Anyhow, some interpretations regarding the 'Many Colours' aspect see it rather that in an attempt to be all-powerful Saruman loses his pure white robe, which symbolises his blurred intentions. I would like to see the change of description more fitting to the lore of the books over the movies.

About the Fuel the Fires Spell, I already read in the German feedback that the spawned Lumbermill will come with the resource upgrade (that is, in the new system I assume it counts as an external build plot?). Does this spell mean that Lumbermills can no longer be bought at Settlement plots, and what will happen to the bonus of cost reduction of buildings?

The spell Minions of the White Hand is an equally interesting renovation and certainly very unique, having three kinds of weak summons rather than one strong one. I assume the role of the Warg Archers was questionable anyway, when players rather used them for their trample abilities. The mounted Traitors of Rohan form a proper alternative here. I like the looks of the Wildmen Plunderers, are they the same as when regular Wildmen get their Heavy Armour upgrade (have to admit I never got Wulfgar to level 10 )?
Then, another question, does Grishnack only spawn with his orcs or also with the other summons? I also wanted to point out that Isengard has many options to deal with heroes, how do you see Grishnack stands out and differs from the existing options?

The central spell is another fantastic solution that displays the importance of the Wizard Saruman and Orthanc itself. I agree completely with your reasoning towards not putting an economic spell or the Many Colours spell in its place. I do have to ask about the upgrades though: as they are free and all Citadels on the map can be applied without costs, the cooldown should be very long for the sake of balance. How is this addressed I wonder?

Lastly, the Isengard Unleashed spell shows a feat of sharp observation within a clever system. I believe it is proof of how much the Edain Mod has a clearly structured ideology in which functionality has the highest importance; the boundaries you have set do not reduce freedom, they rather enforce creativity! 

Great job, looking forward to Rohan and the other faction spellbooks. Hearing about them and providing feedback makes me almost happier than using them in-game 

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

The spell Minions of the White Hand is an equally interesting renovation and certainly very unique, having three kinds of weak summons rather than one strong one. I assume the role of the Warg Archers was questionable anyway, when players rather used them for their trample abilities. The mounted Traitors of Rohan form a proper alternative here. I like the looks of the Wildmen Plunderers, are they the same as when regular Wildmen get their Heavy Armour upgrade (have to admit I never got Wulfgar to level 10 )?

The summoned wildmen use an older model of Edain's that wasn't used in 4.0 until now. Back in 3.8.1 they could even be found as creeps on Fords of Isen II, so I don't think they're the same.

About the Fuel the Fires Spell, I already read in the German feedback that the spawned Lumbermill will come with the resource upgrade (that is, in the new system I assume it counts as an external build plot?). Does this spell mean that Lumbermills can no longer be bought at Settlement plots, and what will happen to the bonus of cost reduction of buildings?

You'll still be able to get lumber mills on your settlements, don't worry.^^

The central spell is another fantastic solution that displays the importance of the Wizard Saruman and Orthanc itself. I agree completely with your reasoning towards not putting an economic spell or the Many Colours spell in its place. I do have to ask about the upgrades though: as they are free and all Citadels on the map can be applied without costs, the cooldown should be very long for the sake of balance. How is this addressed I wonder?

The research times for these upgrades are very long, so choosing which one to go for is important. Still, remember that you invested five spellpoints, so the spell better has some impact

[lordoflinks]

I also find the description not suiting, since it is only implied in the movies that Saruman is doing Sauron's dirty work. In the books his motivations are much clearer, trying to find the One Ring for himself and rule all over Middle-Earth, and he defies the Nazgul when they have come to get rapport by lying to them about his knowledge of the Shire and Gandalf. Anyhow, some interpretations regarding the 'Many Colours' aspect see it rather that in an attempt to be all-powerful Saruman loses his pure white robe, which symbolises his blurred intentions. I would like to see the change of description more fitting to the lore of the books over the movies.

I must say I agree with this immensely.
In addition what will happen to the current citadel upgrades for Isengard in 4.4 now that a new central spell has been implemented?

[Trapper]

Regarding Saruman of Many Colours I am quite confused as it seems the power is barely improved but costs 3 Points more, whereas Gandalf the White in Gondor is improved much more and costs only 1 point more. I think their power should be similar, unless Saruman is already stronger than Gandalf the Grey, making both Spell upgrades rather a way of equalising their strengths.

You have a point, but it is not that easy to compare heroes of similiar costs. Economically speaking, Isengar thas aclear advantage after the EG, which means that its relatively cheaper to pruchase a hero like that for Isengart.
Nevertheless you do have a point.

Regarding Saruman of Many Colours I am quite confused as it seems the power is barely improved but costs 3 Points more, whereas Gandalf the White in Gondor is improved much more and costs only 1 point more. I think their power should be similar, unless Saruman is already stronger than Gandalf the Grey, making both Spell upgrades rather a way of equalising their strengths.

It may be debatable to what extent, but Saruman has been overtaken  by Sauron, when he started to use the Palantir of the Orthanc. He overestimated his own strength and he came under the influence of Sauron, who had the Palantir of Minas Ithil.
He may have thought that he was free, but he was definetly a prisoner of the Dark Lord, not only in the movies.

Elendil answered the rest. ^^

[Walküre]

It may be debatable to what extent, but Saruman has been overtaken  by Sauron, when he started to use the Palantir of the Orthanc. He overestimated his own strength and he came under the influence of Sauron, who had the Palantir of Minas Ithil.
He may have thought that he was free, but he was definetly a prisoner of the Dark Lord, not only in the movies.

I agree. That's how I see things too. Albeit the presumptive treason of Saruman and his independent plans, I have always deemed Sauron too much cunning and smart to be played as a complete fool. I guess that the Dark Lord had always been aware of the real desires of the Istar, but he had nonetheless opted to make the wizard feel in control of the situation, when Saruman was instead being manoeuvred as a mere puppet in the meantime. If you think about it, this kind of influence is even more terrible, given that the victim doesn't realise that he has actually been subjugated. We are in fact talking about the subtlest and most deceiving character of Tolkien's universe, who is absolutely versed in any typology of schemes involving treachery and manipulation (from the very Elder Days, to the fall of Númenor and its empire). Thus, in a wider overview, I would say that Sauron, regardless of Saruman's intentions, used Isengard as a diversion to keep Rohan and the other western people busy with (or, if that was possible, in order to annihilate them); in doing so, he was given the proper time to mobilise Mordor and to summon his immense army, defusing also what could have been a very perilous of an eventuality: a sudden alliance between Rohan and Gondor. Risk that had eventually come true (only in the latest hour, though), with the consequences we all know.

Beside the geopolitics of Middle-earth, Saruman's new 'multifaceted spirit' is a sacrosanct aspect equally, as Tolkien himself stated that his 'many colours' symbolise the diversity and extreme volubility of the Istar's desires/intent. Could perhaps a compromise with the text be found? A description that satisfies all these needs.

[TheDarkOne]

I agree. That's how I see things too. Albeit the presumptive treason of Saruman and his independent plans, I have always deemed Sauron too much cunning and smart to be played as a complete fool. I guess that the Dark Lord had always been aware of the real desires of the Istar, but he had nonetheless opted to make the wizard feel in control of the situation, when Saruman was instead being manoeuvred as a mere puppet in the meantime. If you think about it, this kind of influence is even more terrible, given that the victim doesn't realise that he has actually been subjugated. We are in fact talking about the subtlest and most deceiving character of Tolkien's universe, who is absolutely versed in any typology of schemes involving treachery and manipulation (from the very Elder Days, to the fall of Númenor and its empire). Thus, in a wider overview, I would say that Sauron, regardless of Saruman's intentions, used Isengard as a diversion to keep Rohan and the other western people busy with.

Beside the geopolitics of Middle-earth, Saruman's new 'multifaceted spirit' is a sacrosanct aspect equally, as Tolkien himself stated that his 'many colours' symbolise the diversity and extreme volubility of the Istar's desires/intent. Could perhaps a compromise with the text be found? A description that satisfies all these needs.

I think that such discription puts a shame on Saruman. Despite being influenced he acted on his own. Technically he was used but not so roughly and evidently to call him a puppet. After all he wanted to wage a war against Sauron but with the discovery of his treachery he could no longer do that, forcing himself to ally with the Dark lord. Just a victim of unexpected circumstances. The titles "Saruman of many colors" and "the puppet of Sauron" together make a very controversial line. I agree with you, a more neutral description should be made.

[lordoflinks]

Why not say:
"Saruman of Many Colours consorts with Sauron through the Palantir. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cooldown on all skills and +1000 lifepoints."
or
"Saruman of Many Colours falls under the influence of Sauron. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cooldown on all skills and +1000 lifepoints."

I prefer the first one; in English at least the word "puppet" when applied to a leader has very negative connotations that suggest that the ruler has lost all agency and freewill and even though Saruman may have been manipulated by Sauron he certainly still had freewill and agency over his actions (After all, at one point he went to beg Gandalf for forgiveness). In addition as you play as Isengard, I feel their spellbook should be written from their perspective rather than the overall perspective, hence I feel negative descriptions of Saruman should be avoided.     

Finally, what are the actual effects of the citadel upgrades (You did not mention them in specific terms) and what has happened to the old ones? 

[Dain@]

Hello !sorry for my English Updates are smart! I have only two questions: The first is how to deal with the ability to devastate if there are no trees on the map, and the second one is more important - the Orthanck tower is super - but what abilities will there be, and it seems to me that it would be great if you remove the lightning from Saruman when He is outside the tower, and leave only when he is in the tower !, and the lightning can replace it with something ??? After all, it is duplicated, and it would be great if the skills were slightly different! This would add a little variety, and secondly that the most important thing would be changing tactics when playing for Isengard! The player will have different properties and abilities depending on how he uses Saruman, in the tower or on the front line. What do you think?

[Walküre]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to undermine his character, whose relevance in the lore I have always admired. It's true that Saruman being manipulated is not very much evident and that the wizard did have his own plans, but we shouldn't forget that Sauron is the master of intrigues and deceit; the Dark Lord doesn't have allies, but only servants or puppets (consider the word in its broadest meaning) whom he moves as pawns for his real designs. This is how the Lord of Mordor thinks and acts, leaving very little space for unexpected circumstances. As I pointed out, this is presumably the subtlest, most powerful and most terrible form of control, since the victim has the illusion of acting as his conscience dictates, while being just a pawn in the master's chessboard. Fact that doesn't discredit Saruman's role at all; it just reinforces Sauron's. A sort of parallelism with the treachery of the Rings of Power: unbeknownst to him, the Three had been forged and never tainted by the Evil, yet Sauron had made it like the secret formula (common to all Rings) would subjugate all other possible artefacts of that kind (being him aware or not of their existence), should a ruling Ring have been created. Henceforth, in spite of one's own independent moves, everyone would be held captive of his grand scheme.

I was just making an attempt to find a sort of balance. Neither Saruman fooling Sauron nor the wizard being a complete puppet could be appropriate interpretations for the case. That's why we need the old and good art of compromising, in this particular context.

[Trapper]

There should be trees on every official Edain Map. If not please tell us in the map bugs forum.

We won't tell you the specific details, cause we want you to still be able to discover things when the update comes out.
So stay curious

[lordoflinks]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to undermine his character, whose relevance in the lore I have always admired. It's true that Saruman being manipulated is not very much evident and that the wizard did have his own plans, but we shouldn't forget that Sauron is the master of intrigues and deceit; the Dark Lord doesn't have allies, but only servants or puppets (consider the word in its broadest meaning) whom he moves as pawns for his real designs. This is how the Lord of Mordor thinks and acts, leaving very little space for unexpected circumstances. As I pointed out, this is presumably the subtlest, most powerful and most terrible form of control, since the victim has the illusion of acting as his conscience dictates, while being just a pawn in the master's chessboard. Fact that doesn't discredit Saruman's role at all; it just reinforces Sauron's. A sort of parallelism with the treachery of the Rings of Power: unbeknownst to him, the Three had been forged and never tainted by the Evil, yet Sauron had made it like the secret formula (common to all Rings) would subjugate all other possible artefacts of that kind (being him aware or not of their existence), should a ruling Ring have been created. Henceforth, in spite of one's own independent moves, everyone would be held captive of his grand scheme.

I was just making an attempt to find a sort of balance. Neither Saruman fooling Sauron nor the wizard being a complete puppet could be appropriate interpretations for the case. That's why we need the old and good art of compromising, in this particular context.

Hence my suggestions:
"Saruman of Many Colours consorts with Sauron through the Palantir. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cooldown on all skills and +1000 lifepoints."
or
"Saruman of Many Colours falls under the influence of Sauron. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cooldown on all skills and +1000 lifepoints."

They still acknowledge the connection between Saruman and Saruron through the slightly more subtle line of "consorts with Sauron through the Palantir" or the fairly blunt "falls under the influence of Sauron." They also manage to avoid the word puppet and its connotations and thus I believe one of them strikes the compromise we need between acknowledging Saruman's agency and highlighting the subtle nature of the manipulations of the Dark Lord.   

[Dain@]

I wanted to offer an addition to the ability of an icy rain: what about the addition of an effect - 25% visibility and damage to the archers. After all, in fact, the rain worsens the visibility and range of archers. And it will be just like in the film at the siege of Helm's Deep. I think that if you unite these two effects, Isengard will get a really powerful attacking ability and then no one can resist the iron fist of Saruman  . What do you think ???


As for Saruman, he was neither a puppet of Sauron at the same time, it all depends on which side to look at? The marionette was because in any case to get the ring as Saruman wanted, he had to destroy the free people and create an alliance with Sauron. On the other hand, he was deceiving the Nazgul and partly Sauron, although Sauron knew about the betrayal of Saruman. DieWalküre is right about psychological subtlety, but Saruman still had free will, he was simply hampered by his insanity about getting a ring and pride that ruined him. It seems to me that to get an answer to the questions of a puppet whether Saruman should first answer the following question: What if his army would have won Rohan? What's next, how would he act ??? He would have helped Sauron with the siege of Minas Tirith or .... ??? Here is the answer: what and how would he act ???