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The Road to Edain 4.0: Your feedback

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lordoflinks:

--- Zitat von: Garlodur am  1. Mai 2017, 17:34 ---I also find the description not suiting, since it is only implied in the movies that Saruman is doing Sauron's dirty work. In the books his motivations are much clearer, trying to find the One Ring for himself and rule all over Middle-Earth, and he defies the Nazgul when they have come to get rapport by lying to them about his knowledge of the Shire and Gandalf. Anyhow, some interpretations regarding the 'Many Colours' aspect see it rather that in an attempt to be all-powerful Saruman loses his pure white robe, which symbolises his blurred intentions. I would like to see the change of description more fitting to the lore of the books over the movies.

--- Ende Zitat ---
I must say I agree with this immensely.
In addition what will happen to the current citadel upgrades for Isengard in 4.4 now that a new central spell has been implemented?

Trapper:

--- Zitat ---Regarding Saruman of Many Colours I am quite confused as it seems the power is barely improved but costs 3 Points more, whereas Gandalf the White in Gondor is improved much more and costs only 1 point more. I think their power should be similar, unless Saruman is already stronger than Gandalf the Grey, making both Spell upgrades rather a way of equalising their strengths.
--- Ende Zitat ---
You have a point, but it is not that easy to compare heroes of similiar costs. Economically speaking, Isengar thas aclear advantage after the EG, which means that its relatively cheaper to pruchase a hero like that for Isengart.
Nevertheless you do have a point.


--- Zitat ---Regarding Saruman of Many Colours I am quite confused as it seems the power is barely improved but costs 3 Points more, whereas Gandalf the White in Gondor is improved much more and costs only 1 point more. I think their power should be similar, unless Saruman is already stronger than Gandalf the Grey, making both Spell upgrades rather a way of equalising their strengths.
--- Ende Zitat ---
It may be debatable to what extent, but Saruman has been overtaken  by Sauron, when he started to use the Palantir of the Orthanc. He overestimated his own strength and he came under the influence of Sauron, who had the Palantir of Minas Ithil.
He may have thought that he was free, but he was definetly a prisoner of the Dark Lord, not only in the movies.

Elendil answered the rest. ^^

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: Trapper am  1. Mai 2017, 23:16 ---It may be debatable to what extent, but Saruman has been overtaken  by Sauron, when he started to use the Palantir of the Orthanc. He overestimated his own strength and he came under the influence of Sauron, who had the Palantir of Minas Ithil.
He may have thought that he was free, but he was definetly a prisoner of the Dark Lord, not only in the movies.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I agree. That's how I see things too. Albeit the presumptive treason of Saruman and his independent plans, I have always deemed Sauron too much cunning and smart to be played as a complete fool. I guess that the Dark Lord had always been aware of the real desires of the Istar, but he had nonetheless opted to make the wizard feel in control of the situation, when Saruman was instead being manoeuvred as a mere puppet in the meantime. If you think about it, this kind of influence is even more terrible, given that the victim doesn't realise that he has actually been subjugated. We are in fact talking about the subtlest and most deceiving character of Tolkien's universe, who is absolutely versed in any typology of schemes involving treachery and manipulation (from the very Elder Days, to the fall of Númenor and its empire). Thus, in a wider overview, I would say that Sauron, regardless of Saruman's intentions, used Isengard as a diversion to keep Rohan and the other western people busy with (or, if that was possible, in order to annihilate them); in doing so, he was given the proper time to mobilise Mordor and to summon his immense army, defusing also what could have been a very perilous of an eventuality: a sudden alliance between Rohan and Gondor. Risk that had eventually come true (only in the latest hour, though), with the consequences we all know.

Beside the geopolitics of Middle-earth, Saruman's new 'multifaceted spirit' is a sacrosanct aspect equally, as Tolkien himself stated that his 'many colours' symbolise the diversity and extreme volubility of the Istar's desires/intent. Could perhaps a compromise with the text be found? A description that satisfies all these needs.

TheDarkOne:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am  2. Mai 2017, 01:56 ---
I agree. That's how I see things too. Albeit the presumptive treason of Saruman and his independent plans, I have always deemed Sauron too much cunning and smart to be played as a complete fool. I guess that the Dark Lord had always been aware of the real desires of the Istar, but he had nonetheless opted to make the wizard feel in control of the situation, when Saruman was instead being manoeuvred as a mere puppet in the meantime. If you think about it, this kind of influence is even more terrible, given that the victim doesn't realise that he has actually been subjugated. We are in fact talking about the subtlest and most deceiving character of Tolkien's universe, who is absolutely versed in any typology of schemes involving treachery and manipulation (from the very Elder Days, to the fall of Númenor and its empire). Thus, in a wider overview, I would say that Sauron, regardless of Saruman's intentions, used Isengard as a diversion to keep Rohan and the other western people busy with.

Beside the geopolitics of Middle-earth, Saruman's new 'multifaceted spirit' is a sacrosanct aspect equally, as Tolkien himself stated that his 'many colours' symbolise the diversity and extreme volubility of the Istar's desires/intent. Could perhaps a compromise with the text be found? A description that satisfies all these needs.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I think that such discription puts a shame on Saruman. Despite being influenced he acted on his own. Technically he was used but not so roughly and evidently to call him a puppet. After all he wanted to wage a war against Sauron but with the discovery of his treachery he could no longer do that, forcing himself to ally with the Dark lord. Just a victim of unexpected circumstances. The titles "Saruman of many colors" and "the puppet of Sauron" together make a very controversial line. I agree with you, a more neutral description should be made.

lordoflinks:
Why not say:
"Saruman of Many Colours consorts with Sauron through the Palantir. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cooldown on all skills and +1000 lifepoints."
or
"Saruman of Many Colours falls under the influence of Sauron. Permanently gains +50% magic damage, -25% cooldown on all skills and +1000 lifepoints."

I prefer the first one; in English at least the word "puppet" when applied to a leader has very negative connotations that suggest that the ruler has lost all agency and freewill and even though Saruman may have been manipulated by Sauron he certainly still had freewill and agency over his actions (After all, at one point he went to beg Gandalf for forgiveness). In addition as you play as Isengard, I feel their spellbook should be written from their perspective rather than the overall perspective, hence I feel negative descriptions of Saruman should be avoided.     

Finally, what are the actual effects of the citadel upgrades (You did not mention them in specific terms) and what has happened to the old ones? 

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