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Autor Thema: General Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 13610 mal)

Offline Lord of Mordor

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General Balance Discussion
« am: 24. Okt 2015, 01:57 »
In this thread, you can discuss balance issues that affect more than one faction, such as the general economy. If you feel a balance topic is so big it deserves its own thread, you're free to create one, but for smaller points this thread might be useful.
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Offline Saeros

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #1 am: 5. Feb 2016, 13:17 »
Greetings people,
I would like to propose a reduction in the infantry unit prices for the men factions.
If any of you have ever played BFME1 you could possibly remember that the units were cheaper the more fountains you had built.
I think this would help a lot (especially for the gondorian archers and the rohan infantry -archers and spearmen- since they are too weak and too costly respectively) in order to have a way to produce a supportive force for your -very weak- peasants without bleeding economically
Finally, the dwarven infantry could use this reduction, since the dwarves are an infantry-based faction although to be honset they are value for money.
A 15% reduction with two fountains and a 30% with three fountains I suppose would suffice.
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Feb 2016, 11:36 von Saeros »

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #2 am: 5. Feb 2016, 15:45 »
I think that this topic should rightly be merged with the General Balance Discussion thread (still empty, so far).
It's the right place to discuss about general balance-related matters  :)

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Offline Hamanathnath

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #3 am: 5. Feb 2016, 16:08 »
I really don't either or the Men factions need a price reduction on their infantry.  I'll go into both of them specifically.

Rohan:  The only infantry Rohan has, excluding captains, are peasants.  And peasants are already very cheap (150 for Normal Peasants, 250 for Farmhands).  Not only are they very cheap, but the buildings that make peasants make money, and Rohan is the only faction to have that feature, except technically Lothlorien because of the Citadel and Beorning hut, but they have different money making mechanics then normal Resource Buildings.  Keep in mind that the more money your farm is making, the faster peasants come out.  So it would be wise to upgrade the farm(s) you are using to make peasants with Production increases, as well as using Theodens cruel taxes on them.  Finally, Gamling can also just summon Peasants for free, which comes back decently fast if you Banish him with Corrupted Theoden. 

Gondor:  Gondor does have a lot more infantry then Rohan.  However, Gondor Soldiers and Spearmen only cost 200 and 300 respectively, which is even with most other factions,  and pretty cheap considering how effective they can be.  And every other infantry unit (Tower Guards, Citadel Guards, Dol Amroth Soldiers), which are considered the elite infantry, already have a price reduction when you buy Town Houses (to 30% reduction if I remember correctly).  And even if you think the prices are still too high, that's where Denethor comes in.  His ability State of Emergency, I think after using the palatir 2 times, reduces the cost of all you soldiers, at the cost of making them less effective.  And Finally, Gondor gets free infantry from the signal fires, which is very effective, especially with the Spellbook power that makes it better. 

So, I really think that neither of the faction need a reduction like this.  They both have their own means of dealing with the prices. 
Don't take offense to my post though, this is just how I argue :). It's good to see people post ideas.   

Offline Sawman

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #4 am: 5. Feb 2016, 17:54 »
I agree with Haman here peasants are already very cheap and can be made quickly and if anything Rohan needs a upgrade discount not infantry discount and your right the Rohan archers and spear throwers are expensive but there's a reason for that and that's is they are very good if used right and as for Gondor they already have discount and cheap units and for their archers yes they are 400 but with 6 town houses you can get rangers for only 490 (I think) around there so you can get better archers for only a little more money and honestly with Gondor if I ever get an archery range it'd because I want the fire arrows for my rangers and I have no intent to buy Gondor archers

Offline Saeros

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #5 am: 6. Feb 2016, 11:31 »
@Haman, no offense taken but my post was not for either the peasants nor the gondor soldiers, it was for the archers, of the two factions.
Obviously you were right in what you said, but you answered in something that I never mentioned..


@Sawman you have a point for the gondorian archers but I think that rohan could use the reduction since their units (even peasants at lvl 1) are not value for money, at least in my opinion.

Anyway I don't know, I think that this suggestion could help a player under constant siege to stand on their feet and also give the player a reason to build an underused building which doesn't offer much , except if the player is not under attack.
In conclusion by including this suggestion, it adds more choises and depth in the game.

Offline Hamanathnath

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #6 am: 6. Feb 2016, 16:59 »
I'm sorry I miss interpreted what you said BUT you did say infantry and to my knowledge, infantry means generally hand to hand combat foot soldiers.  And I have Medieval 2 Total War for giving me that knowledge:P. If you ment archers...... You probably should have said archers.

And my arugement still stands.  The only one I would like to see with a price decrease, as well as other buffs, is Spear Throwers, because they are pretty pathetic right now.  But other then that, the other archers are priced well because of how powerful archers can be.

Offline Saeros

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #7 am: 7. Feb 2016, 16:09 »
Yes you're right but I had wrote clearly that this was about the archers in the parenthesis.
Well we see eye to eye for the spear throwers at least, but I think that 280 gp for a unit that is too important plus 600 gp in order to reach the reduction and at the same time the fact that the player has think carefully what to build and what not to build, is not a bad deal!
Anyway I had this thought, I supposed that this could help..

Offline Lord of Mordor

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #8 am: 9. Mär 2016, 01:58 »
I'd like to hear what you guys think about the attack range of archers currently. Do you find archers easy and comfortable to use? Or do you often think that they're automatically standing too close to the enemy? In large late game battles, do you have two distinct rows of infantry - melee in front, ranged behind with some distance behind them - or does it all clump together usually? Edain has much larger armies than either BfME game, but our archer ranges are not that much higher at the moment. And from what I've heard, some people find archers annoying to use. What would you think if archer range in general was increased quite a bit - say, so that the range of Gondor Rangers is the new standard and others like Lothlorien archers with longbows shoot even farther? Games like Total War, for example, have much longer ranges than we do, and even in Age of Empires I think a longbowman shoots farther than in Edain.

On the one hand, this would be a significant buff to archers, on the other hand it could make them more practical and make positioning more important by creating more distinct battle lines. That's all theoretical though, so I'd like to hear your thoughts :)
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Offline DrHouse93

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #9 am: 9. Mär 2016, 02:06 »
Actually, I'm fine on the current state of archers. They're quite strong, of course, but since they cost two times more than an ordinary infantry batallion, I think their strength is balanced. Also, to be honest, I even hate when my enemy bombards me with Lorien Archers with Longbows: they're basically able to attack my base by standing in their own castle xD

Offline Lord of Mordor

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #10 am: 9. Mär 2016, 02:11 »
Thanks for the feedback :) Do you also think that archers with the lowest range (for example, axe throwers, crossbowmen, cavalry archers, Galadhrim) feel good to use?
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Offline DrHouse93

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #11 am: 9. Mär 2016, 02:30 »
Now that I think about it, maybe a very slightly range buff to crossbowmen and Galadhrim would be better, I think. They shouldn't be at the same range of archers, of course, but not even at the same range of melee fighters xD
Also, I don't know if this is a bug, but sometimes I ran into Orc Archers having more range than Gondor Archers ._. (which is kinda weird xD)
Of course, this is just my personal opinion, so maybe other guys may disagree with me^^

Offline The_Necromancer0

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #12 am: 9. Mär 2016, 04:53 »
Actually, I'm fine on the current state of archers. They're quite strong, of course, but since they cost two times more than an ordinary infantry batallion, I think their strength is balanced. Also, to be honest, I even hate when my enemy bombards me with Lorien Archers with Longbows: they're basically able to attack my base by standing in their own castle xD
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Offline H4lbarad

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #13 am: 9. Mär 2016, 09:43 »
I think archers should get a little range buff. As you said Lord of Mordor, sometimes archers come almost in melee fighting and get killed very easily and fast ^^
But maybe to balance it you can nerf their damages.

I don't know if this solution can be good, but I think it wouldn't cost so much to try it :P

Offline Hamanathnath

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Re: General Balance Discussion
« Antwort #14 am: 9. Mär 2016, 14:36 »
I like the current state of archers in general.  In my opinion, they have a perfect balance in their use difficulty.  I generally never see them get too close to melee combat, except the ones who intentionally have low range (I'll get to them in a moment), and their damage is pretty much perfect, neither being too high or too low.  They also do not make you instantly win fights if you have a lot in your army, and require the right amount of attention to make them very effective.  Honestly, I don't really have any problems with the way they are now.

The ones with less range are a little bit tricky.  The way I play, if 2 different types of archers  have the same price, I pretty much always prefer Range and Attack Speed over how much damage they deal.  The best example of this would have to be how I play Erebor.  The 2 main archer units they have are Axethrowers and Dale Archers.  Out of those 2, I always prefer getting the Dale Archers over the Axethrowers.  This is because the Dale Archers higher Range and faster Attack Speed makes them safer to use, and their damage is still pretty good.  It's not like Axethrowers are bad, it's just their range makes them harder to use, and I don't think their damage makes up for it.  So for the archers with less range (Axethrowers, Galadhrim, etc.), I would like to see a very slight range increase, and maybe also a slight damage increase, if that doesn't make them unbalanced.

Mounted Cavalry (well really just Rohirrim Archers) sort of have the same problem as Archers with low range, but being Mounted is already a major advantage, so a range increase might make them too strong.  Maybe a very slight damage would be good, but nothing more than that in my opinion.

Now that I think about it, maybe a very slightly range buff to crossbowmen and Galadhrim would be better, I think. They shouldn't be at the same range of archers, of course, but not even at the same range of melee fighters xD
Also, I don't know if this is a bug, but sometimes I ran into Orc Archers having more range than Gondor Archers ._. (which is kinda weird xD)
Of course, this is just my personal opinion, so maybe other guys may disagree with me^^
If I remember correctly, the formation of Gondor Archers makes their damage higher at the cost of range, so that might be why Orc Archers had a higher range then them.