[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions
General Balance Discussion
Slawek56703:
Alright thanks Haman I'm fine with this health point increase .
Julio229:
Hi!
I think Dwarven CAHs could have a shield like the Ered Mithrin units have, it would be cool to be able to make custom Ered Mithrim heroes, and the shield is the only part of their design that isn't available for CAH.
I hope you like this suggestion!
FilipGeorg95:
Hey, is there a possibility to increase the health and armor against arrows for Rochyn Sul, Knights of Dol Amroth and Royal Guard of Rohan ?
I am writing this because they resemble the very jewel of those factions might and units and therefore when I usually play with them it takes me about 40 min to recruit them and they require previous updates and are strictly late game units which I personally approve. My point is to buff them a little bit because even though they act as heroic cavalry, I am sure that in pitched and massive battles they should endure long ( note that my tactic is to use them as flanking force and hammer-anvil which is used by most players ) Overall their role, concept, price and CP are well balanced but I have noticed that everyone of them on level 10 has the maximum health of 2276 which I find a little bit "small" compared to other heroic units.
That's for now and all of you have a good day
Filip Georgievski
Goodfella:
Hello Everybody! :)
1st of all: How are you? How's your day been? How's the kids? etc.
2nd of all: NERF TOWERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it is well known to the team that they are currently OP but i just wanted to make this post, to be doubly sure. And also to point out the level to which (I believe) they need to be nerfed.
In a recent patch fix, that is being experimented with in the MP community (made by Deathless), towers have been nerfed. He nerfed them by decreasing the fire rate of the towers. However, I consider (along with many other players) that even this nerf is nowhere near enough.
Are Towers OP in edain?
Deciding if something is OP is no easy task and I like to be careful before making that deceleration. But i can honestly say that if there was one thing i could change about this mod it would be tower damage.
I would go as far as saying i would rather DELETE towers from the game than keep them how they currently are! I have never come across a player who supports the buffing of towers and almost every player i talk to agrees that they are currently way too powerful.
Ruuddevil said in his most recent video: 'this is why people make sub-mods - these f*cking towers' (i'm paraphrasing :p). Honestly, I have to agree with him, one small change like a HUGE nerf to towers would improve the experience of the mod in a big way! :)
What's the problem with OP towers:
You could argue that they're technically not 'Imbalanced' because towers are a feature of every faction, so everyone can exploit this feature right? Well yes, that's true - so its more a game-play tweak rather than a re-balancing
What's The problem with Towers in Edain?
1. They make outpost rushing somewhat viable and if you can solidify your position at an outpost with lots of towers it is very difficult for the attacker to destroy it, leading to stale, campy games with little map dynamics.
There are of course ways of destroying the outpost, moving in with rams for one - but this is difficult to do as you need to protect your rams with units, which drop like flies to the towers, thereby making it so much easier for the defender.
Often the only viable option is to make catapults and siege from a distance. How does the defender counter this? With catapults of his own of course! And thus the battle of the catapults begins, 10-20 mins of shooting each others catapults whilst spamming out more. 'Shoot catapult, move catapult to dodge incoming bolder, rinse and repeat till one player wins'. Unless of course one player has denethor then its gg cus he reks catas from 5 miles away :/
2. sieging a base is a bloody nightmare. Pretty much the same thing as the outpost - a few towers force catapult battles.
You can be in a completely winning position, have the entire map, destroyed your enemy's army with some good play, then you're instantly stopped with 2-3 towers. You can make rams but they're often easily targeted by your enemy and thus the cata battle begins.
I think that UNITS should be able to destroy a base, such as mordors, WITHOUT siege even if they have some towers - just as long as your position is so dominant it warrants such an attack. Same goes for a castle base, you'd just need a ram or 2 to get through the gate.
3. Why is there such a huge reward on building towers for a player? There is almost 0 skill involved in building a tower. And yet they have the power to destroy armies. The burden of skill is laid almost entirely on the attacker once towers come up. The attacker must carefully micro his rams, fight the enemies with units, target the tower with units if needs be, pick the perfect moment to attack etc. The defender need only target siege then put his units on defensive stance, as to avoid damage and let the towers work their magic.
4. Unupgraded towers are bad enough in the early game, but when they are upgraded: Wow. They are insane!
Have you ever attacked a mordor base with all towers having fire arrows? Moving near that thing with units is suicide. The only option is catapults, and good luck defending them while you're being constantly drowned by orcs! I'm not saying it's impossible, or even that difficult once you got the hang of it, but my god is it boring and frustrating!
Why are towers OP in Edain?
So why ARE they so OP in edain?
I don't know tbh, but i have a few ideas:
Is it that they do more damage? I don't know the actual stats but they don't 'feel' like they do more damage when you compare them to vanilla. Getting near a fort in vanilla does plenty of damage to your troops - they drop like flies.
So if it's not higher damage then what?
I think part of the issue is building health: it is higher in edain right? so it's harder to kill towers and stop that damage output. The longer you're trying to get rid of a tower the more damage it is doing, and the more time your enemy has to attack you/ run to the building's defence.
The other thing i'd say is: there's not that many things that easily kill units in edain. Like yeah, in vanilla towers do a lot of damage to your units and kill them pretty quick, but so do heroes or archers or arrow volleys or giant-tentacled-sea-creatures (you get the picture) - so the relative damage of towers are not so high in vanilla. In edain on the other hand, there's not many army killers left and yet towers still kinda have that status so their relative damage is higher.
So yeah, a BIG nerf to towers would help the 'feel' of the game a lot i think. Why don't we reduce it by like 4x and see what happens? That may just be my salt talking but they've been op for so long i would LOVE to seem them under powered and build up from there.
Because of course, towers are necessary (i was only half joking about deleting them). For example, mordor and isen would rly suffer without decent defences in their base. We still need towers but they need to have a role change as a helping-hand to your defence - not a power house that completely changes the direction of a game.
Finally, I have a few ideas about towers in the future. How about having un-upgraded towers being good vs spam - so low damage high fire rate. And upgraded towers being good vs elite/ upgraded units, at the cost of being weaker vs spam - higher damage but with a slower fire rate. (Kind of like how the isen bezerker upgrade works)
Anyway, ideas like that may be nice to make towers more interesting but the main priority (imo) should be nerf nerf nerf them! plz! plz! plz!
P.S all terms and conditions apply: this is not an attack on the edain team or your work, it's simply constructive (I hope) critisim from one of your players. Best mod eva 10/10 (11/10 if no towers)
Peace!
ElessarTelcontar:
Hello Goodfella,
--- Zitat ---I think it is well known to the team that they are currently OP but i just wanted to make this post, to be doubly sure. And also to point out the level to which (I believe) they need to be nerfed.
--- Ende Zitat ---
As far as I know ET will already debuff the towers.
--- Zitat ---I would go as far as saying i would rather DELETE towers from the game than keep them how they currently are! I have never come across a player who supports the buffing of towers and almost every player i talk to agrees that they are currently way too powerful.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I think if they delete the towers it would be funny but not a joy for us. I heard that people think that towers are OP but actually they are not. Me and friends believe that actually they are not OP. I will explain why.
--- Zitat ---You could argue that they're technically not 'Imbalanced' because towers are a feature of every faction, so everyone can exploit this feature right? Well yes, that's true - so its more a game-play tweak rather than a re-balancing
--- Ende Zitat ---
If there is one thing you can exploit it would be a ballista.
--- Zitat ---1. They make outpost rushing somewhat viable and if you can solidify your position at an outpost with lots of towers it is very difficult for the attacker to destroy it, leading to stale, campy games with little map dynamics.
There are of course ways of destroying the outpost, moving in with rams for one - but this is difficult to do as you need to protect your rams with units, which drop like flies to the towers, thereby making it so much easier for the defender.
Often the only viable option is to make catapults and siege from a distance. How does the defender counter this? With catapults of his own of course! And thus the battle of the catapults begins, 10-20 mins of shooting each others catapults whilst spamming out more. 'Shoot catapult, move catapult to dodge incoming bolder, rinse and repeat till one player wins'. Unless of course one player has denethor then its gg cus he reks catas from 5 miles away :/
--- Ende Zitat ---
I think you admit that there are ways of destroying an outpost. Actually there is no need to siege weapons to destroy a outpost which has three upgraded towers. In addition siege weapons are not for shooting each other it would be very funny and ridiculous scene watching them trying to shoot each other. It is never needed to carry the situation into that. For me if you want to use your siege weapon you should learn how to defend them. And there is nothing easier to defender when one has already spent his high amounts of money to build an outpost, build towers and upgrade them. It is not a proper way to offend against towers saying that there is no effort requirement to build a tower. You should actually think about "opportunity cost". If you want to take an outpost first you should send your troops there first it requires to sacrificing your economy by giving up the opportunity to extending your area and it requires to kill possible creeps or trolls nearby.
--- Zitat ---You can be in a completely winning position, have the entire map, destroyed your enemy's army with some good play, then you're instantly stopped with 2-3 towers. You can make rams but they're often easily targeted by your enemy and thus the cata battle begins.
--- Ende Zitat ---
If you be in a completely winning position by having the entire map and destroyed your opponent's army then you should be able to destroy the tiny rest and actually in that situation it is not a problem even you don't need to make rams or catapults. Furthermore, in that situation there can not be a "cata battle" because of the opponents economy. The argument is somewhat wrong because of it.
--- Zitat ---I think that UNITS should be able to destroy a base, such as mordors, WITHOUT siege even if they have some towers - just as long as your position is so dominant it warrants such an attack. Same goes for a castle base, you'd just need a ram or 2 to get through the gate.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Actually you can destroy a base without siege weapons as long as you have the right forces on the battleground besides I usually don't build siege weapons and if your positions is so dominant then you can be able to destroy the opponent's base in the current configuration
--- Zitat ---3. Why is there such a huge reward on building towers for a player? There is almost 0 skill involved in building a tower. And yet they have the power to destroy armies. The burden of skill is laid almost entirely on the attacker once towers come up. The attacker must carefully micro his rams, fight the enemies with units, target the tower with units if needs be, pick the perfect moment to attack etc. The defender need only target siege then put his units on defensive stance, as to avoid damage and let the towers work their magic.
--- Ende Zitat ---
There is no huge reward on building towers. You can't say that there is no skill involved in building a tower if it is not in the base. And of course they should be able to destroy armies after all they gain that ability after spending huge amounts of money and spending effort to keep the area and the outpost safe to be able to upgrade them before they are destroyed. If there is a reward it is because of that opportunity cost. If one can have the outpost then one should go there first keep the area clean and work for it when it costs to slow down one's economy and army building.
If it is in the base one should basically give up one of the needs like economy, army, upgrade. One pays the cost of building a tower directly at the beginning of the game. It is also an opportunity cost. And if you let one take a camp and build only towers on it you are playing wrong then. Towers are for protecting the base or outpost from a direct fall so if you want that you better come with an outnumbered force.
And the game is not about taking outposts and destroying the towers. You should first weaken the opponent's economy by taking economic structures and then you can deal with that outpost. Outpost and towers are static structures that they are not meaningful by themselves. They need opponents to do their job if you don't want to overtake them or to control the area you should not go near them at the beginning of the game once one took 'em.
--- Zitat ---So why ARE they so OP in edain?
I don't know tbh, but i have a few ideas:
Is it that they do more damage? I don't know the actual stats but they don't 'feel' like they do more damage when you compare them to vanilla. Getting near a fort in vanilla does plenty of damage to your troops - they drop like flies.
So if it's not higher damage then what?
I think part of the issue is building health: it is higher in edain right? so it's harder to kill towers and stop that damage output. The longer you're trying to get rid of a tower the more damage it is doing, and the more time your enemy has to attack you/ run to the building's defence.
--- Ende Zitat ---
As I said at the very beginning they will be slightly debuffed in 4.5 but there is no need to a huge nerf to be able to "feel the game" or something good for enhancing the gameplay as you said and I think their health points are just right. Really if you have right amount of force you will be able to destroy them.
--- Zitat ---Finally, I have a few ideas about towers in the future. How about having un-upgraded towers being good vs spam - so low damage high fire rate. And upgraded towers being good vs elite/ upgraded units, at the cost of being weaker vs spam - higher damage but with a slower fire rate.
--- Ende Zitat ---
The fire rate can be discussed but I think towers are already weak against spam.
For towers we have an idea an it is being able to equipped with allies forces and being able to see from the largest distance a siege weapon attack them( may be their damage will be low at that distance or their damage can be decreased totally but we don't think that their health point is the issue.)
Towers are the facts of the battle. They need to be tough and rough enough. Love the towers or at least accept them. That would be easier for all of us.
For whom is interested: Please comment on what you think.
Peace.
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