[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

General Balance Discussion

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The_Necromancer0:

--- Zitat ----nerfing of the warg century by adding a timer before the next warg spawns

--- Ende Zitat ---

I think the same should be applied to the Dire Wolf expansions of the Angmar Castle, if my memory serves they spawn basically non stop, worse than the spider catapults of 3.8.1

About the fear expansions, I think the cooldowns should be a lot longer, it has always seemed quite short. There is also the option of making it an activatable that the player has to click on (with an even longer cooldown since you get to pick when it activates).

Le Sournois:
Hello,

My idea here is that pikes in general are too strong when they get heavy armors compared to swordsmen.
Swordsmen vulnerability to archers is 100 %  and when they get heavy armors, it is reduced to 65 % = -35 pts

Pikemen vulnerability to archers is 135 % and when they get heavy armors, it is reduced to 85 % = -50 pts, which is a lot more difference than for swordsmen.

Often in late game, I make a lot more pikemen because it is far easier to manage (moreover they get a better range in their attack, if I'm not mistaken ? so that they are not that bad even against swordsmen)

Above all, a very great and nice change in Edain 4.5.4 included the knight shields to protect the calavry even better against archers (which improves the gameplay in my opinion). But this change has made pikes even better than before because cavalry are even more vulnerable to them even with these shields.

To make up for their bad performance against cavalry, I suggest archers to do 100 % damage instead of 85 % against pikemen with heavy armors, which would make a difference of 35 pts as it is for swordsmen.

I feel that one of the strenghts for swordsmen is their reliability against archers, and that strenght should be emphasized even better when they get heavy armors whereas for pikemen, ennemy archers is supposed to be a weakness and that's not coherent in my opinion that their weakness is turned to a strenght once they get heavy armors.

Another suggestion :

To improve the gameplay even better, I think it would be a good idea to reduce slightly structural damage against heavy armors maybe (130 % instead of 150 %) and also to reduce very slighty the hero damage against heavy armors (140 % instead of 150 %) so that heavy armors would not result too much in a disadvantage as it can be sometimes. And that would make the idea that towers are OP in Edain less true as well.

Thank you

Gnomi:
Hey, just a smalll note on your beginning about the difference:

--- Zitat ---Swordsmen vulnerability to archers is 100 %  and when they get heavy armors, it is reduced to 65 % = -35 pts

Pikemen vulnerability to archers is 135 % and when they get heavy armors, it is reduced to 85 % = -50 pts, which is a lot more difference than for swordsmen.
--- Ende Zitat ---
You did a small mathematical mistake here. You should not talk about explicit numbers and therefore not use subtraction, but about percentage differences and hence use division. Sutractions will look right in the first place, but there will be some errors, which will make these arguments wrong. In reality the difference is marginal - is is 63% for pikes and 65% for swords, so it is basically the same.
A very quick example would be if sword shat 100% armor and pikes 50% and both times it gets 50% better, so we have 100%-50=50% and 50%-50%=0%. Both times I calculated it the same as you - but pikes will get immune to damage and swords will just get double as strong. Of course the upgrade is way better for pikes here.

An example which is more similar to our problem above would be the following:
Let Swords have an armor of 100% and pikes of 1000%. Armor will both times give 50%, so after the upgrade the armor will be 50% and 950%.So we clearly see, that after an enemy needs two attacks on the swordsman with heavy armor to deal the same damage as one attack without heavy armor. On the other hand 2 Attacks on the pikeman with heavy armor will not deal the same amount as 1 attack on the pikeman without heavy armor, but will deal 90% more damage. So even though the difference is both times 50%, the armor is very strong on swordsmen, as it cuts the damage down by 50%, while it only cuts the damage down on pikes by 5%.
To be equally good, the armor of the pikes must not be changed from 1000% to 950%, but from 1000% to 500% - then the armor also cast the damage in half for both units, even though it is one time only 50% and one time 500%.
(both times it does the same, as 50/100=500/1000)
We have to use the exact same mathematics in your example.
65/100=65
85/135=62.96
So both times the heavy armor upgrade gives you about the same boni. It is clearly not much stronger on pikes (beside the 2%) and the difference is basically the same
Please notice that I do not talk about any problems in particular (and I don't say that your points are wrong) - I just say that your mathematical argument is completely wrong.^^

Le Sournois:
I admit I had not made maths advanced studies :D

Thank you for the complete answer and your correction. There is then not a difference between pikes and swordsmen when they equip heavy armors.

What remains of my point is only that then :
Cavalry is a better counter to swordsmen than swordsmen are to pikes because cavalry can trample and make the ennemy unable to attack back during a short time whereas swordsmen simply attack normally and seem sometimes to be more passive in combat than the pikemen (because of their poor range it seems).

Then archers could be a slightly better counter to fully upgraded pikes

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
Cavalry is also twice as expensive as swordsmen. Additionally, pikes also are more vulnerable to archers, which only makes them effective against cavalry - they need to be a harder counter to cavalry to make up for that.

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